{"id":654,"date":"2020-04-08T20:02:00","date_gmt":"2020-04-08T17:02:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=654"},"modified":"2025-06-11T12:56:17","modified_gmt":"2025-06-11T04:56:17","slug":"companies-should-go-remote-darren-murph","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/companies-should-go-remote-darren-murph\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Companies Should Go All-Remote: Darren Murph of GitLab"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We\u2019re really fortunate that we\u2019ve been all-remote from the very beginning and we\u2019ve documented heavily from the very beginning. So, we\u2019ve empowered future teammates to take advantage of that and we haven\u2019t lost any of that knowledge as we\u2019ve scaled.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This week on the podcast, we have Darren Murph, Head of Remote at GitLab, book author, and Guinness World Record holder!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talked about why GitLab uses \u201call-remote\u201d to describe the company\u2019s remote identity, how hybrid model remote teams can lead to anxiety and guilt, GitLab\u2019s handbook-first approach, and why \u201cstory-telling ability\u201d is essential in remote teams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favourite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL291dHNpZGUtdGhlLXZhbGxleQ%3D%3D&hl=en-TW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>How Darren got the rare title of \u201cHead of Remote\u201d<\/li><li>Why GitLab choose \u201call-remote\u201d as their company identity<\/li><li>Why hybrid remote teams can lead to guilt and burnout<\/li><li>Why \u201cstorytelling ability\u201d is important in GitLab<\/li><li>GitLab\u2019s \u201chandbook-first\u201d approach<\/li><li>Darren answering questions from Twitter<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/darrenmurph\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Darren\u2019s Twitter<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/darren_murph\/?hl=en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Darren\u2019s Instagram<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep5-angellist-andreas-klinger-7wk48zsyiu\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Andreas Klinger of AngelList: Normalizing Hiring Outside Silicon Valley<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/company\/culture\/all-remote\/guide\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">GitLab\u2019s Guide to All-Remote<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/company\/culture\/all-remote\/handbook-first-documentation\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The importance of a handbook-first approach to documentation<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/handbook\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">GitLab Handbook<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/company\/culture\/all-remote\/informal-communication\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Informal Communication in an All-Remote environment<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/handbook\/general-onboarding\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">GitLab onboarding<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/about.gitlab.com\/handbook\/communication\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">GitLab communication<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Welcome to another episode of \u201cOutside the Valley,\u201d a podcast by Arc, the remote hiring platform that helps you hire senior remote software engineers easily. Here, we interview remote startup leaders, remote work advocates, and workers of distributed teams who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. I\u2019m your host, Jovian Gautama. I\u2019m super excited for the interview. When I started this podcast, I\u2019ve never expected that one day I\u2019ll have a Guinness world record holder as a guest, but here we are. He\u2019s also an author who wrote the book titled \u201cLiving the Remote Dream.\u201d And most importantly last year he joined GitLab as their very first ever\u2026Is that correct?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep. That is correct.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep. Very first ever Head of Remote. And for those of you who don\u2019t know GitLab, it is a complete devops platform with thousands of features delivered as a single application. If you\u2019re a devops expert or you\u2019re a software engineer, chances are you\u2019ve heard about them. GitLab is also one of the pioneers of the Remote Work Movement with more than 1,200 team members spread across 67 different countries and regions, more than 300 patents owned by all the team members, all with zero office space. We\u2019re going to talk about more about everything remote related to GitLab. But first, let\u2019s welcome Darren Murph. Darren, welcome to \u201cOutside the Valley.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Super excited for this. So, yeah, just to kick this off, can you share a bit more about yourself and your story that made, you know, remote work very close to your heart? I mean, you even wrote a book about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Remote\u2019s been near and dear to my heart for a very long time. So, when I was actually in university, I joined as a contributing editor for what was then a very small consumer tech publication called Engadget. It\u2019s now a world leader in the space. And so, from the very beginning, I was writing remotely. So, the team was all over the world. We were five or six people. I was in North Carolina at the time and it was just natural.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The team was set up to work remotely. We used, I believe it was IRC at the time, so this was well before the days of Slack. But it just came natural. That\u2019s how I began communicating with the team. And it just felt like an ideal way to do it. My first actual full-time role out of university comically enough was with a telecom company called Nortel. And they made a piece of software that essentially if your desk phone rang, it would ring your laptop, which sounds really funny now, but at the time, it was super progressive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so because of that, they encouraged a work from home culture because our product enabled work from home. And I fell in love with it. I live in a pretty rural pocket of North Carolina. It\u2019s where my family is, my wife\u2019s family. We\u2019re a big family people. We\u2019re big into community and there just aren\u2019t that many opportunities in this rural part of the country outside of remote work. And I just have a strong passion for reversing rural depopulation and spreading opportunity to underserved places. It impacts me and I want other people to have that same opportunity. So, this role at GitLab was an amazing fit and I\u2019m thrilled to be able to use the platform to help proliferate remote-first and all-remote companies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think there\u2019s getting a lot more and more discussion on how remote work empowers, you know, rural areas. You know, there\u2019s a government initiative called like the Tulsa Remote or Rural Online Initiative. So, I think there is very fantastic progress. So, it\u2019s not all about, you know, productivity, you know, making like\u2026doing faster software. But it\u2019s really like, a real thing that you can observe like it helps people. So, I\u2019m really excited about the products, remote work. So, I want to talk about your position a little bit, Head of Remote. The position, Head of Remote is pretty new. I have only seen literally two people with this title in the world. The first one is Andreas Klinger from AngelList who was in this podcast. And actually when I talked to him, \u201cSo, what does Head of Remote entail?\u201d And so, in short, his answer was like, \u201cIt was kind of like a made-up title.\u201d So that\u2019s him. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s funny. Yeah. That\u2019s right. Yeah. It\u2019s really funny. Actually, I\u2019m good friends with Andreas. He came to a panel that I was on last year and we were talking together after the panel. And I was telling him what I did at GitLab and we were chatting with GitLab lab CEO, Sid. And Andreas said, \u201cSo, this is crazy, but this person here, he is actually better suited for this title. Like, mine is Head of Remote, but it really should be Head of Remote Product. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m necessarily in charge of making sure our team acclimates well to working remotely. It\u2019s more on the engineering side.\u201d And so, in the typical GitLab fashion, we created a merge request to change my title and Sid merged it. And so, that was that. So, we actually used GitLab the product to change the title to be more indicative of what I\u2019m doing here at the company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, so when you joined GitLab, your title wasn\u2019t Head of Remote?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it wasn\u2019t. It was so long and convoluted that I don\u2019t even remember it at the time. It was like All-Remote Culture Curator, which in fairness was what I was hired to do. So, a lot of folks are familiar with the devops side of GitLab, but they\u2019re less familiar with, we\u2019re pioneering the future of work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We\u2019re the world\u2019s largest all-remote company. What we\u2019ve managed to do at scale with zero offices, I mean actually zero offices, our entire executive team is spread all over the world. They all work from not an office. It\u2019s not necessarily from home. It can be a hotel, or an airplane, or anything else.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>But no one really knew about that side of it. So, my job was to come in, and help evangelize that, and talk about that to the outside world. And help influence other companies and show them the way. We certainly want to help influence more of that because we believe the rising tide will lift all boats.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But after I got in, there was a big need for actually evangelizing, and explaining, and helping internally. We have a lot of people that have joined the company with decades of experience in a co-located space. And just acclimating to a fully remote company takes some time, and it takes some expertise, and it takes some guidance, and it takes a lot of iteration. It\u2019s not something that necessarily happens overnight. And so, a lot of my job has become working with talent branding, and hiring, and recruiting, onboarding and making sure all the pieces are there internally so that the team feels confident that they can work well, communicate well, and just be comfortable and happy in a fully remote space, especially if they\u2019re coming from a co-located space where working this way can be quite different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Talk us through a little bit about why GitLab is like incredibly bullish about the remote work. Like, you mentioned, you joined like\u2026I already forgot the title. Like, Remote Resource Curator\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026ends up dying. But that means that at one point the executive was thinking like, \u201cHey, we need to be one of the proponents of the remote work.\u201d It\u2019s almost your identity, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, we see other companies that are also remote, but there are kind of like\u2026it\u2019s kind of like they\u2026I would say, it\u2019s kind of like a site message from them. Like it\u2019s, \u201cOh, we are remote. Yes, we love it.\u201d But that\u2019s not their whole\u2026I don\u2019t want to say selling point, but that\u2019s not their whole identity, so to speak.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0That is a great word. Identity is a great word. Now, all-remote is 100% tied in with GitLab\u2019s identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Look, here\u2019s the thing, when you look back at what GitLab is going to be and the impact it\u2019s going to have on the world, if you fast forward 50 years, people will look back at what we did on the devops side and it changes the world. It\u2019s currently changing the world. It\u2019s helping software be built more quickly. It\u2019s empowering more people in more places to build more software. It\u2019s amazing. But the lasting, lasting legacy well after the software is used and iterated on is going to be what we did to change society from a work standpoint. So, if you dial back the clock in the early 1900s, you have Henry Ford inventing the assembly line. And I don\u2019t know if the people at the time, when they showed up to work at the assembly line the first week, if they knew that they would one day be on a page in a history book on how this fundamentally changed how we worked.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I actually can mentally fast forward 50 years from now. And I think right now we\u2019re writing the first page on what will be another chapter in future history books where society will look back and say, \u201cOh, awesome. People finally figured out that they could use the internet to fundamentally change how people live their lives, and work more efficiently, and empower people in a new way.\u201d It\u2019s amazing to be a part of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We\u2019re really fortunate that we\u2019ve been all-remote from the very beginning and we\u2019ve documented heavily from the very beginning. So, we\u2019ve empowered future teammates to take advantage of that and we haven\u2019t lost any of that knowledge as we\u2019ve scaled.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>But yeah, it\u2019s absolutely part of our identity. Part of our vision is for more remote-first and all-remote companies to proliferate. We don\u2019t want to be the exception. We want to be the norm. And anything that we can do to help that and contribute to that is part of who we are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I like to the fact that you said that everything was well documented, like from the beginning. I guess it\u2019s also like the fact that the nature of the product itself, right, is about documentation. You know, pull requests, and merge, and so whatnot is naturally\u2026everything\u2019s naturally documented. Basically, you guys kind of like dogfooding the product itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And yeah, it\u2019s amazing. So, when it comes to, like you mentioned as a proponent of for remote work, right, as GitLab want to be the voice of telling people, \u201cHey, you can actually work remotely. And I believe it\u2019s not only in tech, right. Other industries, like whenever there are some parts that can\u2026I don\u2019t know. I mean, for assembly line, probably it\u2019s a bit hard, right? But some part of it\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s right. If you\u2019re building hardware, it\u2019s really hard. If you\u2019re doing anything else where your output is purely digital, you should go remote. So, things like hospitals where people need one-on-one care, things like actually physically assembling a car, really difficult to do. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s impossible. I\u2019ve seen even surgical robots where if you have low enough latency, you actually can do some things like that. So I do think we\u2019re moving towards that future. But in the here and now, anything that\u2019s digital, you should do it remotely. If you walk into an office, open up a laptop, and just stare at it all day, you could do that from anywhere in the world. It\u2019s a pretty easy litmus test.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. I agree with that. So, now a lot of companies are starting to realize this, right? And some of them are trying to experiment. So say with remote days, or remote weeks, and whatnot. And some of them even started hiring some teams remotely, like they started first and it leads them to become a hybrid team. Right. But there are some problems with that when you\u2019re a hybrid team. Hybrid tier means some of the\u2026some or most of the employees or team members are co-located and some of them are remote. But you did talk\u2026can you talk us through what are the pitfalls on this and why should companies that is currently using the hybrid model, should try to move to all-remote?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We\u2019re at an interesting inflection point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, we fundamentally believe that all-remote is the purest form of remote because, by its default, everyone is on a level playing field. Everyone is a first-class citizen. There are no hallway conversations that you miss. There are no meetings after the meetings where information is disseminated but not documented. There\u2019s not an office where these things can take place, so it doesn\u2019t impact the psyche of the team.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That said, there aren\u2019t that many all-remote companies and it\u2019s really hard to unwind a co-located or a hybrid team all the way back to where there\u2019s no office. Now, if you\u2019re small enough, if you\u2019re under 50 people, I actually would strongly encourage you close the office and just do it because it will only get more difficult as you add more people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But if you\u2019re a larger company and you already have one or two offices established, but you want to build a larger remote team or you want to introduce remote into your culture, there\u2019s kind of a rip the Band-Aid off approach that you really need to take. And you have to commit to being remote-first in everything you do even when you have the office.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, this is going to feel weird because essentially your office is going to become the millstone instead of the point of pride. And what I mean by that is, if you generally would have eight people in a boardroom and then you\u2019d have eight people dialing into a Zoom call, so you have 16 people total, what you really should be doing is to have all eight people in the boardroom, open up their individual laptops, and look into their webcam so that all eight people that are outside of the office feel like they\u2019re on a level playing field.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, what this is going to do is serve as a forcing function so that everyone in the boardroom feels super awkward and they all look at each other and they say, \u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d And that\u2019s exactly the point. You should not be in the boardroom. Consider how much collective commute time it took to get all eight people in the boardroom when you actually could be doing this call from anywhere. It makes no sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, you\u2019re just going to have to live with the fact that by going remote-first, some of your office is going to become glaringly impractical. And I think that\u2019s a good thing. It acts as a forcing function, it gets you closer to being able to close the office. There\u2019s nothing wrong with that. If it comes down to the decision of, should we just be fully co-located or should we allow remote, definitely allow remote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And the truth there is if you\u2019re operating a company on multiple floors, definitely if you\u2019re operating a company across multiple office buildings in different regions, you\u2019re already remote to each other. You already have portions of the company that are remote to another portion of the company. So it behooves you to implement great remote-first practices, even if you just need two offices to communicate well with each other. And then if you get that done, it enables you to also hire purely remote team members and start to build that side of your team out. By going remote-first, they don\u2019t feel like a second-class citizen from day one.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You got to watch out for the pitfalls, especially if you\u2019re a leader leading a remote team. Remoters tend to feel really guilty. Remoters can feel FOMO. It hurts on the isolation front if you have a physical in-office happy hour that they know is happening but they can\u2019t contribute virtually. There are ways to mitigate this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you google GitLab Informal Communication, you\u2019ll see a lot of tips that we use to make sure that we have virtual pizza parties around the world, where you know, we have a rolling pizza party, where it\u2019s dinner time in one region and they throw photos up of enjoying pizza with their family. And then an hour later, it\u2019s dinner time somewhere else and then an hour later, it\u2019s dinner time somewhere else. If you have Slack and you have a hybrid team, you could totally do this even with some people being all in the office and some people being remote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The point is you really have to focus on the remoters and give them additional attention because there are going to be some nuance things that they miss in the office. And it\u2019s up to leadership to make sure that that isn\u2019t a detriment to the overall team morale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I totally agree with you, especially in a part where the\u2026the FOMO part. It\u2019s actually\u2026I feel like it\u2019s even more,\u2026it\u2019s really\u2026we don\u2019t talk about it more. Like the FOMO of remote team members that work with a\u2026remote team members when the company is\u2026most of them are co-located. Like one of the GitLab\u2019s articles about the hybrid team is that the guilt that came to these remote team members, right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Am I contributing enough and am I missing anything? Do I have a good relationship with my boss or even my coworkers? And actually, that kind of feeling can burn you down. And then at least you\u2026I need to work more, I need to work more, and you get burned out. And then your KPIs drop, your productivity drop, and then it\u2019s just bad for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0You really have to watch out for the overall temperature and the atmosphere in the room in a hybrid setup. Because what can happen is there can be this low-level persistent kind of anxiety or stress on a remote team member in a collocated space. Because every day they wake up and they have a 30-second commute from their bedroom to their office. And meanwhile, they know that their colleagues in the office have grueling multi-hour commutes with trains that don\u2019t work and people everywhere. And you show up and you\u2019re supposed to work on the same project. Like before you even start work, you\u2019ve had fundamentally different days, one of which is obviously not as amenable to great mental health as the other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, right from the get-go, the remoter is starting from a much healthier place. And you really have to watch out for the in-office subset that they aren\u2019t overly abrasive about that. I mean, the truth is some people really like being in the office, but you need to create a culture where that\u2019s not at the detriment of those outside of the office.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And funny enough, the FOMO thing about remoters having FOMO about missing out on happy hour, you should actually watch out for the opposite of your in-office contingent saying, \u201cYou know, I feel like I\u2019m missing out on additional time with my family. Additional sleep, additional exercise, additional clean eating. I really want to go remote too.\u201d And I mean, honestly, I think that\u2019s a good thing if your team can be honest about that and say, \u201cHey, let\u2019s try this out. I feel like I would gain a lot more from being on the other side of this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And a quick side note on that, one of the common tropes about disadvantages to remote, is isolation and loneliness. But the reason this comes up in surveys is because by and large, they\u2019re serving people that work in hybrid remote companies. So, of course, they\u2019re isolated and lonely because they have a subset of the company that physically gets together on a daily basis and they\u2019re not in that.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>But see, that equation starts to change when you\u2019re all-remote because if you ask an all-remote team, are they isolated and lonely, you\u2019ll get a much lower percentage that say yes because there\u2019s no FOMO, there\u2019s no missing out on the office. Everyone is equally empowered to engage with their family, engage with their community, and engage with each other. I mean, look, we have people in over 65 countries. I\u2019ll jump on some Zoom calls and I\u2019ll see backgrounds from Europe, and from APAC, and from Africa that look nothing like home. And it\u2019s an amazing cultural exploration. It\u2019s just an amazing icebreaker on a call where I can get to know someone more intimately because their background looks nothing like mine. And that\u2019s actually something that I don\u2019t think you can get in a co-located space. So, in many ways, I\u2019m less isolated. I feel more connected with the world at large just because I\u2019m interacting with a more geographically diverse set of people on a daily basis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah. I totally agree with that. Especially when everyone is on a Zoom call, like five people, everything on it. And it\u2019s just more\u2026it\u2019s just smoother. Like, for example, actually Arc is hybrid teams. Even most of our team members are based in Taipei, Taiwan, but we do have some people who work remotely. Like, I live in Taipei, but I remotely, I don\u2019t go to the office. And we have some people in North America. But before, whenever we have meetings, it\u2019s basically the exact same thing that you mentioned, like three or four people in the same room together and only one\u2026it\u2019s me or other people\u2026one person that\u2019s just in Zoom. And it\u2019s kind of awkward because you cannot hear what they\u2019re saying. And then if there\u2019s someone that\u2019s telling a joke, you cannot get it. And then you cannot ask them to repeat the joke again because it\u2019s not funny. So, this kind of like dynamic. It\u2019s just, like you mentioned, this anxiety current, you know, it just keeps coming.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And leadership has to work really hard to essentially give the remoters a leg up. It almost feels like you\u2019re giving them the advantage, but you have to do that just to level the playing field.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But I wouldn\u2019t be afraid of doing that because if you make your company more remote-friendly, you\u2019re going to get better quality applicants. Your company is going to be more nimble.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>If you just decide, look, we\u2019re scaling too fast for this office, you\u2019ve already set up a good remote-first culture, you can just close the office. Like you almost don\u2019t even have to think about it. Hanging onto tradition and hanging on the co-located is actually a bad business move because companies that are competing with you that do embrace remote, given enough time are going to run circles around you, even if it\u2019s just from an efficiency standpoint.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, right, right. It\u2019s just kind of like a marathon, like just slowly and you just get left behind. So, you also recently published a post about the importance of using the precise terminology in describing remote work, like GitLab uses all-remote. I really never thought about these different terminologies like remote teams, distributed teams. And thus, you absolutely focus the distinctions of absence of physical space. Can you dive a bit more or talk us through a bit more, like why do you think it\u2019s super important to get this terminology, you know, zero on this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, we fundamentally believe that all-remote is the proper term to describe what we\u2019re doing. And the reason is, the alternatives leave room for misinterpretation. So, if you consider the term fully distributed, so you\u2019ll hear some teams that are 100% remote say we\u2019re fully distributed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>The problem with this term is \u201cdistributed\u201d could mean that you have multiple offices that are distributed from each other. So, they\u2019re strategically placed in various geographies. They are distributed, but you\u2019re in no way remote. And then the other thing about that is it implies that there are epicenters of power. So, there are decision-making centers.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Or there are time zones that are more important than others. This creates problems. This creates friction. If there\u2019s any center of power then it inherently means everyone else is a second-class citizen compared to that center of power.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, being all-remote, it makes no bones about the fact that we have no company offices. But I also love that it makes clear\u2026We don\u2019t say you have to work from home. We simply say there are no offices to commute to. And so, if you would prefer to work in a coworking space or an external office, GitLab will actually reimburse for that. We recognize that not everyone\u2019s home is the most amenable place to work. And about one in five GitLabers actually take us up on that and work outside of their home on a regular basis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>On top of that, we have some geographies where there\u2019s a lot of people. Raleigh, North Carolina is a great example. We have a location channel with everyone relatively close to Raleigh. Many of those people will actually get together on a semi-regular basis and work at the same co-working space. So, they kind of create many GitLab contingents just because they happen to be near each other and they want that shared physical energy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s interesting point that you brought up that when we say distributed through this, an epicenter of a power where decisions are made. And I feel like it\u2019s also similar to parallel that there\u2019s a parallel we can draw with the hybrid model where some people will have this anxiety that they\u2019re very far away to the decision-maker of the core of the company, so to speak. So, when you take away the idea of there\u2019s an epicenter and like immediately people will be like, \u201cOh, everything is fair here.\u201d So, yeah, it\u2019s a real subtle thing that you need to think it through, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>It\u2019s very subtle, but I\u2019m telling you it makes a difference. And even if you\u2019re operating an all-remote team, but your entire executive team is based in the same city, it still sends the message that there\u2019s something more important about that city, or that region, or that time zone than anything else. And this explicitly works against a mission to be fully asynchronous and to fully empower everyone to contribute equally.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You just have to watch out for subtle things like that because it matters. It matters if you have the people making most of the decisions in one time zone or one city and they can easily just get together, you know, maybe no one has to know. They\u2019re just going to go grab an office and hammer something out and not tell anyone. It starts to whittle away at the trust in the organization. And then it can be toxic over time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And speaking about solid, there\u2019s one solid thing that I noticed in this call, like in your Zoom name, it\u2019s your name, dash, your title. Darren Murph-Head of Remote. I feel like\u2026correct me if I\u2019m wrong, but is it also a part of [inaudible 00:26:36], like when you\u2019re in a Zoom meeting with 10 or 20 people, you know who are the people and who they are because they probably never met before? Is that one of it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. It\u2019s intentional. It\u2019s one of the many intentional communication efforts that we go through. And so, essentially our Zoom name, we type in our first name in the first name field, and then in the last name field, we type in our last name dash our title. And this is because there\u2019s oftentimes calls with over 100 people on it. And it\u2019s nice to\u2026when a face pops up and they\u2019re vocalizing, you can easily see their title. And as with anything in the GitLab handbook, everything is public. And so our org chart is public and you can easily just google GitLab org chart, dial up who that person is, see what team they work for, what product they\u2019re working on. Really helpful so you don\u2019t have to pause the meeting and ask someone who they are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This kind of segues into a core premise at GitLab, which is the notion of self-service and self-learning. And so, we do everything we can to not impede on someone, not bother someone to get something that could otherwise be found by just searching for it. And even if that\u2019s a title or what they do, that\u2019s why we make the handbook public and we teach people to self-service and go look for it in the handbook first before imposing on someone else\u2019s time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. I\u2019m going to add my title after this call, like Jovian Gautama, podcast person, so that people know who I am.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Perfect. Exactly. Perfect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And like you mentioned, it\u2019s a good segue to the thing I want to talk about, about the GitLab\u2019s handbook-first approach. So, I always had this idea or like this joke that going remote is one of the best things that companies can do to get their shit together. Sorry for the profanity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But it\u2019s more like, okay, when you go remote everything must be really good. Documentation, and you know, communication structure, remote infrastructure, and whatnot. So, it\u2019s very exciting when GitLab specifically had the name for it. It\u2019s called handbook-first approach. A couple of questions. Do you think it\u2019s essential for every company to have a similar path? And how would you advise smaller level companies to start on this? Let\u2019s say, for like 5%, 10%, or like 50% startups, what\u2019s the steps that I can do to be more handbook-first approach?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0So, the answer is yes. You have to work handbook-first if you want this to work long-term. To dial back and answer your first question, the reason why this kind of gets skipped over in a co-located space is because you can create a torturous loop of meetings to fill in the knowledge gaps over, and over, and over, and over again. And because we\u2019ve done it for so long, it just feels like work when it\u2019s actually the opposite of work. And we get away with it because it\u2019s tradition and we don\u2019t know any other way to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But if you work for a week in an all-remote where you work handbook-first and meetings aren\u2019t needed to find things that should be documented, you could never go back. It\u2019s just mind-numbing to have a meeting to get an answer to something that should have been documented potentially years ago, but no one stopped to write it down so people just have to keep re-asking and re-asking.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The other reason we call this handbook-first instead of just blanket documentation, so if you read most common recommendations on how to go remote, you\u2019ll probably read documentation. There\u2019s just like the blanket term, like take it however you want it. That\u2019s fundamentally a bad approach.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>If you just allow the whole company to document in whatever way they see fit with no single source of truth, no universally agreed-upon approach and format to documenting, you\u2019ll have one team that documents in Google Docs, one team that documents in Notion. No one talks to each other. No one has access to each other\u2019s documentation repository. And people still have to ask each other questions and people still have to have meetings to find things amongst teams. So, documentation isn\u2019t the answer. Handbook-first is the answer.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>What I mean by handbook-first is if you google GitLab handbook, you\u2019ll see what it is. If you printed it out, it\u2019s over 3,000 pages, but it\u2019s easily searchable, so you don\u2019t have to know everything. You just need to know how to find what you need when you need to find it. It\u2019s essentially how you use Google. If you\u2019ve used Google to find things like recipes or math equations, you can use Google to find something in the GitLab handbook.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Handbook-first simply means if it\u2019s not in the handbook, it doesn\u2019t exist. And if you have a company that believes in that and operates like that, the entire company will be invested in continually polishing, iterating, and updating the handbook because it is the only single source of truth.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Slack is not a source of truth. Email is not a source of truth. A Zoom Meeting is not a source of truth. If any work-related progress is made in any of those other platforms, it\u2019s on the DRI. It\u2019s on the person responsible for holding those meetings to then contextualize what is important and put them in the appropriate places in the handbook such that anyone else who needs this information, current, and future, will be able to find it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>This requires an amazing amount of intentionality and you have to embed this from day one in onboarding and then you have to reinforce it by continually answering people with links. When they ask you a question, you should be able to answer them with a link in the handbook. If you cannot and they genuinely are asking you something that has never been done before, then you should develop the solution, answer them, and then immediately document that in the handbook such that anyone that comes after you and ask that same question will simply be able to find it in the handbook. You have to pay it forward. You have to have a culture that believes in doing that, and paying it forward, and being diligent about it. Otherwise, it falls apart.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You should do this at any size company, but the smaller the better. You had mentioned, what about a 5-to-10-person company? This is the best time ever to do this. You can start a handbook. We use GitLab for our handbook. It\u2019s the best tool I\u2019ve ever seen to build a handbook because it allows literally anyone in the company to make a merge request,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/visme.co\/blog\/how-to-write-a-proposal\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">make a proposal<\/a>\u00a0to change any other page in the handbook. And that is universally empowering. So, you don\u2019t have just the executive team that can make changes to the handbook. So, we use GitLab, I would recommend using it. It\u2019s open core, so if you want to try it out and see how it works for you, go for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve actually recommended early, early stage teams to consider hiring a former journalist as a documentarian, like a fully dedicated. And in some ways, that\u2019s what I am as Head of Remote. It\u2019s like you\u2019re responsible for making sure that things are being documented the right way, that they\u2019re being formatted the right way, such that your people can find them and it empowers efficiency instead of inefficiency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And you may say, you know, that\u2019s probably not my highest priority hire. I really need another engineer. I\u2019m telling you, you don\u2019t even\u2026you can\u2019t possibly understand how important it is to start doing it now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You\u2019re investing in your long-term efficiency by hiring someone like that to document all of your processes now. It will make your life infinitely more efficient. It pays for itself. If you start adding up the people hours that you would spend in meetings re-asking the same question, you can very easily do the ROI math on why someone like this pays for themselves in almost no time.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I literally can feel the intensity in your face when you just talk about this. I can see like it\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I mean, I\u2019ve worked in places where this is not done and it\u2019s infuriating. Look, life is too short to just keep asking the same questions in meetings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve got mountains to climb, I\u2019ve got family to hug. Like, what are we doing? Why are we spending any more time in the workplace, in meetings than we have to? Like, let\u2019s all help each other out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>The more discipline you have in the company, the better you work, the faster you work, and the faster you can get out of there and go embrace life. And who are we kidding? That\u2019s what this is all about. Like we shouldn\u2019t shy away from it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Yeah. And again, like you mentioned, it has to be appropriate in intentionality. Like, this is not natural. The natural thing to do is\u2026[inaudible 00:35:08] just, \u201cHey, can you tell me this? I need you, people.\u201d That\u2019s natural. But to go the one step further to, you know, document stuff, make it like your second nature, it\u2019s actually not easy. It\u2019s funny. I just remember that, I know a friend, he\u2019s running a bootstrap company quite successful and they\u2019re like 13 to 15 people. And they\u2019re very diligent in documentation. And one of the tricks that they do is like they never pay for the paid version of Slack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Love this. We do the same thing. I know exactly where this conversation is going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, right. Right. So, either you document this or just you lost everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0No, this is\u2026I\u2019m actually building a handbook page right now in the all-remote section of the handbook. So, by the way, if you google GitLab Guide to All Remote, you\u2019ll find all of the guides I\u2019ve written on how we do everything related to remote. They\u2019re all open source. Feel free to copy and paste them, implement them, and we would love that. We have an Inspired by GitLab page that you\u2019re welcome to create an MRR and add your company to if we inspire you in any way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, we actually, even at GitLab, we do not pay for the most premium tier of Slack because we want our messages to disappear after 90 days. This is a forcing function. So, I\u2019m building this page on forcing functions like things you need to have in place that force you to do things the right way. And this is one of them.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So because every message expires after 90 days, it is impossible to do any work in Slack and we want that to always be the case. But that also has a side benefit as an all-remote company. It forces Slack to be purely for informal communication in a way that you can engage in conversations that you would never feel comfortable engaging in, in a co-located space.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, I\u2019ll give you an example. We have a Slack channel\u2026so, all of our Slack channels are topical. So, we have one called In the Parenthood. So, any parent, or want to be parent, or just a person that\u2019s interested in learning about parents, everyone can join this channel. Which will commonly see things in there like, \u201cHey, my 7-year-old won\u2019t cooperate and get dressed for school in the morning. Does any other parent have a roughly 7-year-old with any tips on getting their kid to cooperate?\u201d Now, this is a really rich and amazing conversation and you can really get to intimately know each other through kind of funny but real conversations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then you would never walk into a physical office space and say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m late because my 7-year-old was being totally uncooperative. Can we just pause for a minute and talk about how we deal with that as a team?\u201d No one\u2019s going to do that because you check that side of you at the door. It\u2019s just one of these office norms where you feel like you\u2019re not comfortable bringing that into the workspace.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But when it\u2019s just an informal communication channel on Slack where it\u2019s not urgent, you can just kind of respond to it whenever you want to, we have these conversations all the time. So, I tell people because of that, I feel more connected with my remote team all around the world, many of whom I\u2019ve never met in person than I ever would if the same thing were in a co-located space.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Yeah. That\u2019s amazing. I never thought about it that way. That if you go async with using GitLab on our tool and then the Slack will be just for either pure banter or just like life-related stuff, not necessarily work-related.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right. Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, for listeners, by the way, for everything that Darren mentioned here, the documents and whatnot, you can find it on the show notes. Right. I\u2019d also love to touch upon the fine details of GitLab\u2019s culture. So, last week, you know\u2026actually, take a step back a little bit. Hiring and onboarding is always like a big issue when it comes to remote. Honestly, it\u2019s not even a remote thing. It\u2019s literally a company thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of co-located companies still have issue when onboarding new people, like where to go, and where is this particular document, and whatnot. So, again, remote onboarding still a challenge. So, what do you think others can learn from GitLab\u2019s process? Okay. Actually\u2026Okay. Sorry. Sorry, I just cut that. Because I\u2019m using like an IKEA desk on top of desks. Okay, cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, three, two, one. So, last week we asked this question on Twitter, you know, what question that you want to ask Darren for the podcast? A question from Nina Thampy on Twitter and you\u2019ve answered it awesomely about the GitLabs\u2019s onboarding. And you guys are very transparent. There\u2019s this page where you can see the whole process. But one thing that stood out in your answer is this inclusive onboarding, where if I\u2019m new team member, there\u2019s some kind of preferred ways, \u201cOh, I want to do self-serve or I want to have more people to kind of help me out.\u201d Can you dive a bit more into this? This is a pretty brand-new concept. I never heard about this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, GitLab, I would say, has the world\u2019s most comprehensive onboarding process. And the good news is you can see it and copy it. So, you can google GitLab onboarding template. The template is there. Every new hire uses that onboarding template. It\u2019s over 200 different checkboxes. So, there\u2019s no ambiguity on if you\u2019re done with onboarding or not. You simply go through the list. We have it structured out by weeks, it\u2019s four dedicated weeks. And then there\u2019s a beyond four weeks where people can take as much time as they need to explore other areas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But a key point there is, we actually give you time to onboard. So, a lot of companies, they\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, welcome to the company. We\u2019re going to give you all this time to onboard.\u201d And by hour four, something has caught on fire on a desk nearby and you\u2019re looped into this work crisis. You\u2019re never properly given the time to learn the culture, learn the people, learn the processes. You\u2019re just kind of thrown into the fire and it\u2019s really unfair. It\u2019s a terrible employee experience right from the get-go. So, we\u2019re very intentional about not doing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, we give people weeks to get through onboarding because we firmly believe that if you help someone build a firm foundation, they\u2019re going to be a better team member. They\u2019re going to have higher retention. It just pays off in every which way across the spectrum.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, on the issue of inclusive onboarding, people learn differently. Some people prefer visuals, some people prefer the written word, some people prefer verbal communication. Some people prefer to do things more isolated, they feel more comfortable in their own space. Some people thrive in an energetic setting with lots of other people, and noise, and just energy around them. And we allow any of those people to onboard however they see fit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, I\u2019m actually onboarding someone right now and she prefers the quieter version of this. And so because you have 200 checkboxes to address when you join, you can just sort of go through them step-by-step, read at your own speed, answer at your own speed, reach out to people if you feel like you need help. Everyone is given an onboarding buddy, which is an amazing resource. This person, you\u2019re empowered to ping nonstop if you need to. That\u2019s part of their job to be there for you. But it helps minimize the kind of like pray and spray approach.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You have this onboarding buddy where you can directly go to them with any question. And if they don\u2019t know the answer, they have been at the company long enough to know exactly who to go to, which is a way more efficient way to onboard and get the answers more quickly. It\u2019s just more respectful for the person that\u2019s coming on board.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But if you prefer the more typical new hire orientation, we have a new Labers\u2019 channel where everyone who joined in the same week as you, in the same month as you, you can see who they are. Anyone can just throw a Zoom link into there and say, \u201cHey, you know, new Labers, everybody, let\u2019s hang out for an hour. Let\u2019s talk about what our hobbies are. Let\u2019s talk about what companies we came from. Let\u2019s talk about our hopes and dreams. What department do you work in? What has confused you about onboarding? What is awesome about onboarding?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s the same as a new hire orientation without having to the all prim and proper and carry a certain air about yourself when you walk into an office. So, we allow both of those types of people to thrive and onboard in a way that suits them best. I don\u2019t know of any other company or any other structure where you can get that and be fully inclusive to give people information in any way that they want to consume it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Absolutely. That\u2019s why I told you, like this is the first time I hear about this. Like you can choose your own path to start with GitLab. Right. So, the next thing I want to talk about, you know, creating social connections. We talked about it a little bit, right, you know, with various channels in Slack, the pizza party. These sort of things that\u2026you know, creating genuine social connection is hard, especially when you\u2019re like thousand-something people right across different time zones. So, what are the main principles and initiatives? So we already kind of like touching about the initiative, right, but if we\u2019re talking from the principles\u2019 standpoint, what were the moving principles that you think other companies can adopt when it comes to creating social connection? And the second one, is there any other fun initiatives that we haven\u2019t mentioned?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0The first is being intentional about informal communication. So, in a co-located space, a lot of times you\u2019ll see companies put restrooms near the center of the building to sort of develop interactions because surely people will just run into each other, they\u2019ll be close to each other, and then the informal communication will just spontaneously happen. It\u2019s a really bad approach. If you\u2019re intentional about it, like our People Group, for example, we\u2019ll structure team calls.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, you\u2019ll have the marketing team, for example, they have a monthly call. It\u2019s like a show and tell. And there\u2019s an agenda attached to that document. And anybody that wants to bring something and show off on the webcam, this is something they built, something they created, something that their child created or that their spouse created, and just want to talk about it, and it will kind of open their team up to seeing something that they\u2019re passionate about, that\u2019s something that you have to intentionally put on the calendar. But when people show up, and they get that vulnerability, and they see sides of people that they don\u2019t normally see just during the workday, that\u2019s how you build bonds and build relationships.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>The other part is we\u2019re really intentional about in-person interactions. So, it\u2019s funny. We\u2019re an all-remote company, but I think we\u2019re more intentional about when we get together than even companies that are co-located.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0When you\u2019re co-located, there\u2019s just kind of take-for-granted factor where you see everybody on a daily basis kind of like, \u201cHi, Jim. You know, hi, Jane.\u201d But it\u2019s a miracle that you\u2019re seeing people. I mean, people are miracles. Like we lose sight of this. And so, in an all-remote company, we get our entire company together every 9 to 12 months at a company summit called Contribute. And this is a highly-engaged activity. We have people that circle this week on their calendar a year in advance. Like they cannot wait to get together and meet people in the flesh that they\u2019ve worked with virtually. And that week means so much to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whereas if you take a co-located space, you know, you have somebody going on a company retreat-like, \u201cOh, what can I do to get out of this? Like another week that I have to be on the road?\u201d It just changes your perspective all the way around. So, we\u2019re really intentional about that. And we have a handbook page as well in the All Remote section that lays that out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I think the last thing just kind of refers back to a thing I already mentioned is, use Slack for informal communication. You can build topical channels on travel, and mental health, and women, and parents, ERGs, resource groups. Get people together about topics that they\u2019re passionate about, and give them a forum to discuss it, and relationships will happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That is fantastic. It\u2019s a great way to put it. And also, not easy because sometimes if you\u2019re not subtle with it or you don\u2019t put like thought into it, then this informal communication can be really forced, you know, \u201cHey guys, let\u2019s have fun together.\u201d So, it\u2019s kind of like\u2026so if you\u2019re not designing it well and it\u2019s kind of\u2026again, it\u2019s not easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And look, if you\u2019re going to be intentional about meeting your sales metrics, you should also be intentional about informal communication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0You gotta put them on a level playing field. Sales and revenue is just as important as the fabric of the people that help get you there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So, moving on a bit to the GitLab\u2019s hiring process, right, GitLab\u2019s hiring process is super transparent. And you also mentioned\u2026there\u2019s a question by Rose Barrett on Twitter. You also mentioned that the fact that GitLab is super transparent also leads to the high-level of intentionality in the candidate\u2019s application. And this is an interesting point because I think most companies\u2026a lot of remote companies like they subconsciously do that. Like you know, being open and whatnot, they actually got, you know, high-level applicants. I do believe that. I just want to expand the question a little bit. Is there any specific point or phase in the GitLab\u2019s hiring process that you think GitLab can improve a little bit more when it comes to hiring?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, one of the things that I did kind of early on in my tenure was I added a section on the jobs FAQ that answers a very common question, which is what\u2019s it like to work at GitLab? So, this is the most common question that we would get early, early on. And so, I said, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to build out the FAQ and add this to the handbook bridge and answer this question.\u201d So, I\u2019ll put about three paragraphs up there and a handful of links that I\u2019m confident that if you read through those, you\u2019ll have a really good understanding of what it\u2019s like to work at GitLab.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if you google what\u2019s it like to work at GitLab, you end up on the FAQ and you\u2019ll see it. Now, this filter allows people to kind of opt into applying. If you read that and you think this is the place for me, then you\u2019ll probably apply. If you read that and you think not really aligned with it, then you probably won\u2019t. And it saves us both time. It\u2019s respectful for everyone. It enables GitLab to get higher quality candidates because people read that in advance. They have access to our vision, our strategy, what it\u2019s like to work here. So they opt into it, we get higher quality applicants. And then also, we save people time from applying here if it\u2019s just not the place for them. So, they can even respect that. Even if they don\u2019t want to work here, they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, at least this company saved me some time and I can go find a role elsewhere.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But as with anything at GitLab, iteration is a core value. We\u2019re always looking for ways to improve it. I\u2019d say right now I still think it\u2019s too difficult to apply for a job. It\u2019s still a pretty traditional application flow. It\u2019s pretty long. It can be kind of wonky when it\u2019s trying to pull in past experience from LinkedIn. Some of the things you have to repeat and you think, \u201cOh, the technology should just figure this out. It should pull in the right things.\u201d So, I still think from an actual tech and application process, it\u2019s still a little bit too wonky, too long.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m hoping artificial intelligence gets a bit better at conveying to us who people are without them having to repeat everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Awesome. And another thing that you mentioned when it comes to what kind of traits that you are looking for when it comes to hiring. This is something that like, I mentioned Twitter, I\u2019m pleasantly surprised that you say that, which is exceptional storytelling. Because I work in marketing. I truly believe stories are super powerful, more important than any, you know, conversion metrics, or crafts, and whatnot, this is the core of an identity, of someone\u2019s identity, or company\u2019s identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019d love to dive a bit like, how does GitLab crystallize and identify this particular skill as the top characteristics to look for when hiring someone? Because sometimes in remote companies, people just stop at, \u201cOh, you have to be a good writer.\u201d But you guys go another step to say the word storytelling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, absolutely. Because it matters, storytelling matters. In an all-remote company, we fundamentally have to communicate with low-context. So, if you google GitLab low-context, you\u2019ll find this long definition of what it is. But the long and short of it is, you have to communicate in a very detailed and precise way and think two or three questions ahead. Because you are probably moving a project forward where someone on the receiving end of it is asleep. So, you cannot just rely on constant feedback back and forth to get things to its conclusion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You have to be able to lay out your concept, your idea, the construct of how you\u2019re thinking, in a way that someone else when they wake up will be able to see that while you\u2019re asleep and fully get it. That is the goal. Only storytelling can do that.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re just a good writer, but you don\u2019t think about how it weaves into the broader story of the project you\u2019re working on, they\u2019re still going to need to come back to you to fill in a lot of gaps. And at scale, this creates massive inefficiency. So, simply because we work asynchronously, you need to be able to tell great stories because you have to work as if no one else in the company is awake. You don\u2019t have that crutch. So, it\u2019s on you to put context around your ideas and move them forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. So, yeah. And my last question for this chat\u2026another question by Rose actually is, she wants to ask you what would you want to tell your younger self?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a great question. It\u2019s pretty simple. Be excellent to each other, be kind to people, embrace people. Life is all about relationships. Even work is fully built on relationships and life is really long and your network of people can be really tight. And you don\u2019t really appreciate it early on how important other people are, how important community is, how important relationships are both in life, inside and outside of work. It matters. And people you think, I\u2019ll never see this person again, you\u2019d be surprised, especially in an increasingly remote world, everyone is just a ping away.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s incredible. You don\u2019t have to live in the same city to work together, to plan together, to build companies together, to commiserate together, to cry on each other\u2019s shoulder. It\u2019s amazing. The distance between people is shorter than it\u2019s ever been. So be good to good people. If you find a good person that kind of serendipitously pops up in your life, don\u2019t just let that go. Pay attention to that. The universe might be trying to tell you something. So, that\u2019s it. Be good to each other, be excellent to each other. Sooner or later, you\u2019re going to appreciate it, and you\u2019re going to need those people and they\u2019re going to be people that need you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And yeah, that\u2019s a lovely way to wrap up our conversation today. So, Darren, again, thank you so much for the time. And it\u2019s really an amazing chat. And how can people find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Thanks so much. You can find me at Twitter @darrenmurph and on Instagram at @darren_murph.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So, yeah, for listeners, you can find every GitLab resources as you can tell. Like, they got it all figured together\u2026they\u2019ve figured it all. You can find everything on the show notes and don\u2019t forget to check out GitLab or maybe you can reach out to Darren and ask anything about GitLab, of course. Again, Darren, thank you so much for your time today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Darren:<\/strong>\u00a0You bet. Thanks for having me. Take care.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Darren Murph, Head of Remote at GitLab shares how GitLab wants to change society from a work standpoint, and more.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":656,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-654","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-thought-leadership"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.6 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Why Companies Should Go All-Remote: Darren Murph of GitLab<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Darren Murph, Head of Remote at GitLab shares how GitLab wants to change society from a work standpoint, and more.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/companies-should-go-remote-darren-murph\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" 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