{"id":606,"date":"2019-10-29T19:15:00","date_gmt":"2019-10-29T17:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=606"},"modified":"2025-06-11T12:28:11","modified_gmt":"2025-06-11T04:28:11","slug":"continuous-learning-company-dna-peldi-guilizzoni","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/continuous-learning-company-dna-peldi-guilizzoni\/","title":{"rendered":"Continuous Learning as a Company\u2019s DNA: Peldi Guilizzoni of Balsamiq"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p><em>The tendency is to always go back to what you\u2019re good at and do it. So it\u2019s more of a Zen thing where, once in a while, you have to step back and think, \u201cOkay. Am I doing anything? Am I helping?\u201d, or, long-term, \u201cIs this what I should be doing, or should I train someone else to do this part?\u201d So this sort of strategic long-term thinking is something that, I think, comes with practice.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today I\u2019m joined by Giacomo \u201cPeldi\u201d Guilizzoni, the CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/balsamiq.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Balsamiq<\/a>. In this episode, we talked about Balsamiq\u2019s culture (specifically around the core value of continuous learning and the importance of experiments), the growing pains Peldi experienced as a leader, and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also had a quick peek into Balsamiq\u2019s hiring and onboarding process. We also talked about why Peldi strongly prefers to employ remote team members, rather than have them as contractors (which is a common practice amongst remote\/distributed companies).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I really admire the self-aware nature of Balsamiq, which is a byproduct of Peldi\u2019s personality as a founder and a leader. Hope you enjoy it too!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favourite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL291dHNpZGUtdGhlLXZhbGxleQ%3D%3D&hl=en-TW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>02:31 \u2014 Why Peldi moved back to Italy to build Balsamiq<\/li><li>07:26 \u2014 What Balsamiq does to maintain a self-aware and continuous learning culture<\/li><li>10:16 \u2014 Why \u201cexperiment culture\u201d is important in Balsamiq<\/li><li>13:35 \u2014 Why Peldi prefers not placing too much weight on his own \u201cvoice\u201d within the company<\/li><li>21:15 \u2014 The un-sexy part of remote hiring (legal challenges, paperwork, etc.)<\/li><li>28:05 \u2014 A peek into Balsamiq\u2019s hiring process<\/li><li>29:50 \u2014 Balsamiq\u2019s onboarding process and how it has evolved over time<\/li><li>32:46 \u2014 How Peldi moved away from doing the things he\u2019s good at<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"http:\/\/balsamiq.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Balsamiq<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.indiehackers.com\/podcast\/085-peldi-guilizzoni-of-balsamiq\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Peldi\u2019s Indie Hackers Interview<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/balsamiq.com\/company\/jobs\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Balsamiq Career Page<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep1-taxjar-mark-faggiano-7r9ktngad2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">How TaxJar Creates a Remote Company Culture with Mark Faggiano<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/baremetrics.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Baremetrics<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Shpigford\/status\/1152315686158589964\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Josh Pigford\u2019s tweet<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"http:\/\/zapier.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Zapier<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/podcast\/episode-27-interview-with-peldi-guilizzoni-founder-ceo-of-balsamiq\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Know Your Team: The Heartbeat podcast episode with Peldi<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"http:\/\/buffer.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Buffer<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/LeoWid\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Buffer\u2019s co-founder Leo Widrich<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/peldi\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Peldi\u2019s Twitter<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/peldi\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Peldi\u2019s LinkedIn<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Hello, world. Welcome to another episode of Outside The Valley podcast, where we interview remote startup leaders, remote workers, remote work advocates, and companies who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. This is the podcast where remote companies share what works and what doesn\u2019t so you can do it right. Outside The Valley is brought to you by Arc, a remote hiring platform that helps you hire remote software engineer and teams easily. I\u2019m your host, Jovian Gautama. Today, I\u2019m joined by Peldi, the founder and CEO of Balsamiq.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode, we talk about Balsamiq\u2019s culture, more specifically around the core value of continuous learning and the importance of experimental mindset inside a company, the challenges Peldi experienced as a leader as Balsamiq scaled, and more. We\u2019ll also have a quick peek into Balsamiq\u2019s hiring and onboarding process, why Peldi strongly prefers to employ remote team members rather than have them as contractors, which is a very common practice amongst remote or redistributed companies. I really admire the self-aware nature of Balsamiq, which is a byproduct of Peldi\u2019s personality as a founder and a leader. I really enjoy this conversation, and I hope you do, too. So here we go. Hello, Peldi. Welcome to the show.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Hello. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. It\u2019s really great to have you here. And I\u2019ve been really following your podcast, even before I launched the podcast, especially your podcast with Indie Hackers. It\u2019s just amazing. I love how I described you to my colleagues here. So, before I started the podcast, \u201cHey, I\u2019ll be interviewing Peldi from Balsamiq. He was a very cool guy. He is a very cool guy, and he sounds like this great Italian uncle, that he is so good at business.\u201d I hope this doesn\u2019t offend you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s nice. Thanks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. But, yeah, I think that\u2019s also\u2026other than the fact that Balsamiq is a remote team is also the fact that your philosophy and business actually are quite fascinating. We\u2019d love to go into that in a minute. So before we start it for the audience here, can you tell us a bit about the history of Balsamiq as in, like, \u201cWhy did you start it?\u201d, and more importantly, \u201cWhy did you choose to return to Italy instead of staying in the U.S.?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. So, Balsamiq, we make low-fidelity wireframing tools. So I don\u2019t know if your audience is very technical about user experience or not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019ve probably heard about you, so\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Great. So I won\u2019t go in too much detail. So I started 11 years ago. I was living in San Francisco, but I decided to try starting a business, and I couldn\u2019t afford to do it in San Francisco. And so I thought I could move back to Italy and try to do it from here, where cost of living was much, much lower, and try it for a year or two. And then, if it didn\u2019t work out, I would move back to San Francisco and get another job. So that\u2019s the main reason why I moved here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So when you got back to Italy, in Bologna, at that time\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s where I grew up. That\u2019s where my family is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And was your first hire also based in Italy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I suppose he\u2019s a remote hire, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, first, he used to come to my house. I had a room that was my office, and so he would come in the morning and go through my bedroom and wave at my wife, and then go get to the office. So, at the beginning, we had an office, so to speak. But my second hire, which happened maybe a month after the first hire, was in San Francisco. So fully remote from the beginning. And then we have been sort of this mixture of remote and Bologna office since then. Right now, we have a beautiful new office with 35 desks in Bologna, but usually around three or four people show up every day, and that\u2019s intended. Everybody has their own office at home, and we\u2019re optimized for working remotely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So I found it interesting, because there are some companies that deliberately start as a remote team in the beginning. But there are some companies that just, \u201cOh, this is just how I hire. The so-called remote work is just how I did in the first place. It\u2019s just natural to me.\u201d So you mentioned that your second hire is based in San Francisco. Was there any thought, \u201cHey, this guy is not in the same space. He\u2019s not in the same country as me. How do I make sure that he will do the job?\u201d, and so on, and so forth? Was there any thought, or just, like, it just came natural to you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, yeah, first of all, it was a she, the second hire. It was a woman, but that\u2019s okay. The decision to hire someone in California was very deliberate, because that\u2019s where a lot of our customers were. And so the second person was a support person. And so I wanted to have a distributed company so that we could support customers, both in Europe and in the U.S., very well. So, for a while, I worked every night, and I would answer the phone in the middle of the night here in Italy. I did that for, you know, eight months, and then I decided it\u2019s better if someone who lives there can do support. So that was the primary reason why I wanted to have a remote employee, in that case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The issue about managing was never a big issue for me. In my previous career, I was never a professional manager. I was a programmer. I led a team, and we were all in the same office, but we had collaborators in India, etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So I wasn\u2019t afraid of the remote part, and it has never been a big problem at all. I don\u2019t know why, but, you know, I put a lot of trust in my employees, and they rise up to the occasion usually, and we just collaborate. I don\u2019t have to micromanage anyone.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0How big is Balsamiq now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re 33 people right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So when I was doing research, so I found this. Balsamiq, in my opinion, has some kind of unique company culture. I\u2019ll describe it as self-aware and honest. That\u2019s the two things that came to mind. Self-aware, honest, and, fun, like not taking yourself too seriously and whatnot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me how you came to those adjectives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Okay. I think it\u2019s on one of your blog posts about the company culture. I probably have it. About policies and there is this\u2026Okay. Actually, I\u2019ll pull that back. The first one is from your career page. You started by, \u201cWhy you probably won\u2019t like it here.\u201d And it\u2019s a long list, and it\u2019s not a BS list. Like, this is something very honest, in my opinion. And the second one, and then you start, \u201cWhy you probably would like it here.\u201d And there\u2019s another post that is basically saying, \u201cOh, okay. We share all of this, but we\u2019re afraid to be seen as humble bragging.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think that is very self-aware, because a lot of companies are trying to be, you know, an open startup, and transparent, and it actually is good for the marketing. But I feel like Balsamiq has this self-awareness like, \u201cOkay. We are not perfect. And there are chances that you\u2019ll see us sort of humble bragging and so on, but it is what it is. And what we are trying to do is just learn along the way.\u201d So that was the culture that I found very interesting in Balsamiq. Does it make sense?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, yes. I\u2019m glad, because I like all those adjectives that you used.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Yeah. So what I want to ask is because, right, for these cultures, right? If you\u2019re a group with, like\u2026I think the one that sounds the most is self-awareness and a continuous learning. Was there any deliberate practices or things that you or the Balsamiq team do, either as company policies or communication policies that helps maintain these cultures, if that makes sense, some deliberate things?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Let me see. So the culture of continuous learning has been sort of part of our DNA from the very beginning. That was and still is the main thing that motivates me in life. So I think, over time, as sort of part of the company\u2019s DNA, I\u2019ve been able to pass that love of learning and no fear of experimenting to my team, and we sort of hire people who like to work that way as well. So I think, you know, that came from me from the beginning, but it\u2019s been amplified by other people coming. As far as deliberate policies, etc., you know, we have these models, and these company values, and we do say there that everything should be treated as an experiment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, it\u2019s a big part of our company culture, for sure. And so we reinforce that in our handbook and in our actions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And we celebrate when someone experiments with something. And even if it doesn\u2019t work, it doesn\u2019t matter as long as we learn. We use very few outside contractors, for instance, because we want the learning to stay in the company. That\u2019s kind of what\u2019s fun.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>We also choose to do things ourselves, and we don\u2019t do them as well as an expert would, but the fact that we\u2019re learning while we do it matters to us. It makes our job fun, and so that\u2019s part of the equation as well. It\u2019s not just about the polished output. We also care about\u2026In fact, we care more about how we got there, and what we learned, and\u2026 Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I totally noticed that, like you mentioned, the DNA of continuous learning. I feel like it came from you as the founder, because from our interviews, like, you repeatedly mentioned, like, that this is your value. And that\u2019s how it become the DNA of Balsamiq itself. So, other than continuous learning, is there any other thing or any other of your character, so to speak, that became the DNA of the company?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I mean, for sure. For sure, especially at the beginning. I mean, we\u2019re bootstrapped. This is my first business. You know, we try things out as we go. So, certainly, aspects of my personality or how I think a business should be run has become part of the Balsamiq culture. But, you know, it\u2019s also been 11 years and a lot of people. So, now, I feel like it\u2019s less and less about me, or how I want to do things, and more about how as a company, as a group of people, we like to work. And it\u2019s changed a lot over time, so that line between, \u201cWe do things this way because me, the owner, wants to do it that way,\u201d versus, \u201cLet\u2019s do it this way, because we collectively think it\u2019s a good thing to do,\u201d has blurred a lot. In fact, more and more, I try to make my own opinion count less than it did in the past.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s interesting that you mentioned that. So, before, I was talking to the CEO of TaxJar. He\u2019s CEO and founder of TaxJar, Mark Faggiano. And he actually had exactly the same feeling like when you\u2019re, like, 10 people\u2026 And there are actually now 100 people in TaxJar. And there\u2019s this feeling of, I wouldn\u2019t say, desperateness. I wouldn\u2019t say it in a really negative way. Desperate in saying that, as a startup finder, you have to accept that things will take longer because you need processes and whatnot. Now, you are like 33 people, right? If you look back from where Balsamiq was like, let\u2019s say, 10 people, and now, you\u2019re 33. As you\u2019re growing, was there any some kind of growing pains or challenges that was quite vivid in your mind?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Always. Always. Even going from 1 to 10, or even 1 to 2, or even\u2026 Absolutely, always. It goes through phases where we think we have it figured out, and then we grow, and things change, and we have to come up with another way to work, another way to collaborate. And so then that\u2019s painful. And then we change things, and adapt, and spent, you know, six months doing that, and then we feel good again. And then we figure it out, and then six months later, we got to do it all again. So we say that, as a company, I think we\u2019re on version five. So about every two years, we have to come up with a new version of the company. And I think that\u2019s because it grows. The growth is what drives this transformation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I wonder if you can recall specific examples on\u2026probably it seems kind of like code refactoring in a way, right? Is there any specific examples where you think, \u201cOkay. This doesn\u2019t work, and we need to do\u2026,\u201d like, big, quote-unquote, \u201crefactoring of the company\u201d as you\u2019re growing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I\u2019ve spoken about these phases before. But, you know, even doing the first hire, that\u2019s a huge, scary thing. I didn\u2019t sleep for a while before pulling the trigger, because I didn\u2019t want to hire anybody. I wanted to do it. My dream was to have a single-person company. Then we got to five people, and I thought, \u201cThis is it. Forever.\u201d But then customers kept coming and coming, and I didn\u2019t want a big team. I didn\u2019t feel comfortable leading a bigger team, but we had to because we were struggling under the demand. So I had to let go of my dream and do it. Later, you know, we went from 10 to 16 within a year. That\u2019s almost, you know, what, time and a half, almost two times as big, and that changed everything. Then we decided, \u201cWell, we need to write a handbook,\u201d because we can\u2019t just do word-of-mouth and talk to Peldi about everything. Right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then, as we got longer, I had to give up several parts of my job. Several, like, different jobs that I did. And some were easier to delegate, some were harder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Then, right now, we\u2019re in the middle of an experimentation phase where we still don\u2019t have people managers, but we feel the need for someone to do those kind of jobs. And so, right now, we\u2019re trying different things on different teams to see how we can solve that problem. We split into teams.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That was a big change. We didn\u2019t do that for a long time, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, you know, as you grow, you kind of have to organically come up with new solutions all the time. Maybe there\u2019s a better way where you get VC funding, and they give you a CEO that knows what they\u2019re doing, you know, and a whole executive team, and they\u2019ve done it before, and they know what they\u2019re doing. But that\u2019s not the goal for me and for us. In fact, these are great. The growing pains are\u2026 As long as the market allows us to take our time and figure it out, that\u2019s exactly what we want.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s really fascinating. And I also think that getting back to the DNA of continuous learning also helps. Like you mentioned that, right now, you\u2019re experimenting with having teams or having people managers. But before, even on your website, it\u2019s basically saying, \u201cWe don\u2019t have managers. You all directly work\u2026\u201d But now you\u2019re experimenting with it, which means basically you\u2019re open to change. Balsamiq team is open to change opinions whenever it\u2019s needed. So, yeah, I think it\u2019s a really good reflection. In my opinion, it\u2019s a really good reflection of the DNA.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0In fact, I was a little cringing when you mentioned the jobs page, because when I read that now it feels very outdated. I have it on my list to update it in the next few months, because the company has changed a lot since. We have other pros and other cons to list on that page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Right. Dang, my research is outdated then, but yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it\u2019s my fault, it\u2019s our fault.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0No problem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, some things don\u2019t change, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0The company values, the honesty is gonna be there, even if the data changes. But even the company values can change over time. We did an effort a few months ago to redefine the company values internally. Because after 10 years, the values that I wrote 10 years ago when I was a one-person company don\u2019t make sense anymore. Also, it\u2019s not proper that the company uses my personal values from 10 years ago, right? They\u2019re called company values. They\u2019re not called Peldi\u2019s values that the company uses, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So we just did a big effort where everybody was involved, and we came up with a new set of values that are more reflective of how we actually work right now. But, at the beginning of it, it says, you know, \u201cIn 10 years, we\u2019re probably gonna throw these away and do it again.\u201d And we have to. You have to evolve with the company.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, and that\u2019s what I call the self-awareness part. That\u2019s where I got the adjective from. So I want to move a bit about on Balsamiq\u2019s hiring process. So, before, you mentioned here and there about the tricky legal stuff that you had to go through when you\u2019re hiring a remote team or building a distributed team. Can you share a bit more about that shortly, or what challenges you faced, and, potentially, advices for entrepreneurs that want to build their remote team?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I mean, you probably know more about this than I do because you\u2019ve interviewed more people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But, basically, the crux of the issue is that national laws exist, right? We live in a global society. The internet is all, you know, more or less the same. The tools are more or less the same, but the laws are different locally.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, when you hire someone, you have to abide by their local laws, right? So you have two ways to do it. One is you sort of force this person to create a business and do a business-to-business transaction. Basically, they\u2019re contractors with their own business. And those are better defined, because business-to-business commerce has been going and consulting has been happening for a long time. Those rules are well-defined. Taxation is easy. So a lot of remote companies operate that way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other way is to use employment laws, right, where people are actually your employees. And so, to do that, in every country, state, province, and city where you hire someone, you have to abide by the local laws, and you have to register, get a tax ID. You have to pay sales tax in that location. You\u2019re basically establishing what\u2019s called a nexus in that country. So that means you have to make sure that if the law changes, you change your practices. If the taxation changes, you change your taxation. So what it really means is that you have to hire an accountant locally that knows about foreign companies hiring local people. Then you have to hire a payroll person that makes sure that you follow the local laws, and they calculate the net amount to pay and the taxes to pay every month. So both approaches have their pros and cons. We tend to favor the employment part, because it\u2019s a closer relationship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I agree.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, with a contractor, you can\u2019t buy them a computer because, you know, they have their own business. That\u2019s an expense that they have. Sure, you could give them a bonus or whatever. You can price it into their invoice. But, in theory, you\u2019re not supposed to give them anything. They\u2019re a different business, right? Would you buy a computer to your accountant? No. It makes no sense, right? You can\u2019t buy them tickets to come and visit you, because\u2026 So they have to put all these things out of pocket, and then maybe you can reimburse them later. You can\u2019t give them a Christmas gift because, you know, it\u2019s like you\u2019re corrupting another business. And, also, they\u2019re not supposed to really only work for you as they have a business, consulting business. So it looks better for them if they work for more than one client. So it\u2019s just not what we want in our relationship with our employees. You\u2019re not even supposed to list them on your company page, because they\u2019re not part of your company. They have their own company, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0True. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure, it\u2019s a gray area. But, in theory, if it\u2019s a business-to-business thing, you have to look at it that way. So we do that with one person, because that was their preference. They already had a business, and they\u2019re still running that business, but they also work for us as a consultant, so that\u2019s fine. But, in general, we try to go the employment route. So what that means is that, \u201cYes, we are remote,\u201d but since we\u2019re already set up in California, Illinois, France, and Germany, we strongly favor candidates from those four locations. Because if we had to get someone in China, we would have to register with the Chinese government, get a tax ID, figure it out, hire accountants, payroll people. So, between the five locations where we are, we think that there\u2019s enough of a talent pool that we can hire from there. But, you know, for the right candidate, we might expand into another location, but it\u2019s a huge pain. It\u2019s a real pain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Yeah, I think these are the unsexy part of a remote and distributed team. You know, a lot of people are just talking about, \u201cOh, remote teams unlock a pool of talent. It opens up opportunity and makes you more productive.\u201d But, honestly, as the startup founder, entrepreneur, these are the things that you have to figure out first. It reminds me of a tweet, like, I saw a couple of months ago or from the founder of Baremetrics, Josh Pigford. He actually needed to pay a tax from the State of Texas or something like that. For the listeners, I\u2019ll put the tweet in the notes when I find it. But, yes, this is basically one of the cases where it\u2019s so complicated that it\u2019s really almost impossible for him to figure out that this law exists, so that\u2019s how complicated it is. But, in the end, he need to pay the tax. It\u2019s [crosstalk 00:27:48].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but ignorance is no excuse. So every time you hire someone from another location, you\u2019re taking on more risk, right? Because that means you have to abide by local laws.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Agree. Still on the topic of hiring. So, when Balsamiq is hiring, right, is there any step in the hiring processes that you feel is quite unique to Balsamiq?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0So we don\u2019t look at CVs. We don\u2019t ask for people to send a CV or a cover letter. We also don\u2019t do phone interviews right away to filter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Basically what we do is, whenever we have a job opening, we come up with this very specific list of questions, and create a form on the website with all those questions, and the form takes about an hour to fill in. And that\u2019s the first step, so that takes care of filtering. We only really get people who really want to work for us.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And, also, skip the whole first phone interview, because we learn enough from their answers to be able to really get a sense for each candidate, so it helps us narrow down our selection very, very quickly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s asking a lot of people, but it also tells us how well they write, how well they can explain themselves. So it is a bit asking a lot of regular people who are probably applying for 100 jobs. But we\u2019re lucky that we\u2019re able to do that and people still apply.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0When someone is hired by Balsamiq, how do you do onboarding? Because this is something that comes up a lot when we\u2019re talking about distributed teams. Like, Zapier has this Airbnb-style onboarding that they ship the person to basically be on-site for one or two weeks, if I\u2019m not mistaken. And other companies have their own. How about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so we don\u2019t do that. We don\u2019t do that. In fact, often, I only meet new hires after 10 months when we have the company retreat once a year. So it depends on when they get hired. But, no, we don\u2019t fly anybody anywhere, because we don\u2019t need it. We\u2019re optimized for working remotely, and so even this part should happen well remotely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So what we do is we assign the new hire both a mentor and a buddy.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The buddy is somebody generally in their same time zone, and it\u2019s someone who they can ask any questions about the company and how we work. It doesn\u2019t have to be necessarily about the work itself. It\u2019s more about, \u201cIs it true that we have unlimited vacation?\u201d, you know, this kind of questions about the policies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then there\u2019s the mentor. The mentor is the person that\u2019s gonna train you on how to do the actual job. Usually, it\u2019s the person whose job they\u2019re taking, because they are doing something else, or they have too much, or you\u2019re taking part of their job. [crosstalk 00:31:26], right? So we set up an onboarding program for each new hire, and it depends on what the job is, and it could go from three weeks to six months. It\u2019s on a case-by-case. We design\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of companies I interviewed, basically, they\u2019re saying that onboarding is the most important part. Because, a lot of times, new hires, especially in distributed teams, they will kind of feel lost in a way, like, if the onboarding is not done properly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not something that I am good at. For instance, you were asking about the company culture, right? So my style of onboarding was, \u201cOh, you\u2019re hired. All right. Sink or swim, here\u2019s a bunch of work.\u201d Right? Over time, I have been less involved with onboarding, because it\u2019s just not something I\u2019m good at. But I think, as a company, we do a good job now. Someone else set up some good policies for us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, I think this is a good segue to my next question which is on a broader topic about yourself. And this is actually a bit selfish, because this is more like what I want to learn. So in terms of leadership\u2026 So on your podcast interview with Claire Lew in, you know, The Heartbeat podcast. By the way, this is the thing that I do in this podcast. Basically, we\u2019re just promoting other people\u2019s podcasts, because that\u2019s how I do research. You mentioned about, and I quote you, paraphrasing you here, \u201cDoing something that you\u2019re good at actually can hurt the team,\u201d right, in a way. So I want to ask about, \u201cHow did you realize that?\u201d That\u2019s the first question. And the second question, \u201cWhat were the deliberate steps that you took to avoid doing that?\u201d, like, doing things that you\u2019re good at. Because it probably, like, second nature, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so it\u2019s interesting, because it\u2019s not intuitive right away. You think, you know, \u201cYou should focus on what you\u2019re good at, and everything will be fine.\u201d The way I realized this was I heard it on an interview with the co-founder of Buffer. He\u2019s the one that was saying that, and that was kind of eye-opening. And the thing that I did to stop doing that\u2026 So it\u2019s not one thing. It\u2019s really a practice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>The tendency is to always go back to what you\u2019re good at and do it. So it\u2019s more of a Zen thing where, once in a while, you have to step back and think, \u201cOkay. Am I doing anything? Am I helping?\u201d, or, long-term, \u201cIs this what I should be doing, or should I train someone else to do this part?\u201d So this sort of strategic long-term thinking is something that, I think, comes with practice.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And, at least, I\u2019m being very patient with myself because, you know, I go back, I fall back into the trap of working on what I\u2019m good at often, and it\u2019s also fine. Sometimes that\u2019s what the company needs for a while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But you can\u2019t just do it forever. Or, at least, periodically you should try to think, \u201cAll right. Five years from now, should I still be doing this?\u201d Because everything you do, you\u2019re also learning and getting better. So, of course, you\u2019re gonna do it more. You\u2019re gonna be asked to do it more. So this is not just for the company, or, \u201cThis is for everybody,\u201d you know. Never learn something that you don\u2019t want to be asked to do twice, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0And so, as you\u2019re working, as you\u2019re learning, think about, short-term, \u201cYes, I need to do this project so I will learn this thing,\u201d and longer-term, \u201cShould someone else be working on this with me so that they can do this longer-term? Maybe it\u2019s more interesting for them than for me.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0My opinion is that when it comes to delegating or doing stuff yourself, like, the negative effect of doing that is more amplified when you\u2019re in a remote team. Like, for example, my opinion can be something like, when you\u2019re doing stuff yourself, apparently, you\u2019re doing stuff, if you\u2019re new to the team, it probably can be misinterpreted as, \u201cOh, he doesn\u2019t trust us?\u201d, or something like that. But I think that\u2019s one thing. But, of course, it\u2019s more a complicated thing. But I think delegating well, in my opinion, is super important in remote teams, because it\u2019s not like people cannot see what you\u2019re doing, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And if you\u2019re in the same office, you can, \u201cHey, boss. Are you doing this?\u201d \u201cOh, yeah, I\u2019m doing things. It\u2019s nothing. It\u2019s a small issue. I want to do this myself,\u201d and problem solved. But in remote teams, this is like exponential communication debt, so to speak. And then, in the end, it will make everything slower, and the morale is down, and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s true. That\u2019s true. Absolutely. These are challenges, and there\u2019s ways to solve them. You can communicate better, communicate more. You can, you know, be very clear about expectations, and double-check how are people are feeling about things. And people ask to meet me, you know, spot meetings just to see. If something doesn\u2019t feel right, always double-check. Because, 99% of the time, it\u2019s because of the remote, because we\u2019re not in the same room, so these misunderstandings happen. So, you know, just double-check, and everything is fine, usually, right? So these are things that come with practice, I think, as people work remotely. And then, after a while, you get to know the people that you work with, so you understand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You know, you fill in those voids with trust and past experiences.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Cool. Another thing I want to touch on is about team communication, right? I saw in some of your interviews that Balsamiq has this golden hour, so to speak, where everyone\u2019s online. So I have two questions here. My first question is, \u201cWas it always like that since it was, like, you know, 5 or 10 people?\u201d And my second question is, \u201cAre there any other communication policies that you deliberately implement?\u201d For example, how to ask for information, \u201cHow do you talk?\u201d, and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Yeah, so the golden hour is the only hour that we sort of have in common, working hour that we have in common, between California and Italy. So it\u2019s 8 a.m. to 9 a.m. in California, which is 5 to 6 p.m. here in Italy. Now, 8 a.m., it is early. So we\u2019re asking people to start pretty early in California, and some people start even sooner than that. They take 7:00 or 7:30 a.m. meetings because it helps. There\u2019s no ways around it. It helps to have a synchronous conversation, so they\u2019re just faster, right? Not necessarily meetings, even just Slack messages, you know? So this sucks. This is something that there\u2019s no tool that can solve that because, you know, the Earth spins. So we do have that, but we don\u2019t really require everybody to be online. It\u2019s just that, depending on the job, that\u2019s when we expect people to schedule meetings between us and California.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes, I\u2019ll stay later. You know, I\u2019ll work until 7:00 to meet with people, or I will have after-dinner meetings less and less, but some other people will also do that. So that\u2019s one thing that we do. It\u2019s always been that way, because, like I said, we\u2019ve had someone in California since the beginning. And then, communication policies, we try to stay very light on policies, because they just creep up, and then the tendency is to have too many. But what we say is that if you are in Slack in a specific room called \u201cAnnouncement,\u201d and your little dot is green, it means that you\u2019re working, and you\u2019re probably willing to be interrupted or, you know, if you see a Slack message.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>If you\u2019re working on something, focused, and don\u2019t be interrupted, you just quit Slack and we can\u2019t reach you.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So that\u2019s really it. And then there\u2019s people who manage servers. We have their phone numbers if needed. You know, we have those classic if-there\u2019s-a-problem, on-call policies, but that\u2019s really about it. We like guidelines more than policies, so I don\u2019t think we have much about communication style. I think that\u2019s kind of something that\u2019s contagious, too, as you\u2019re new, and you see how people communicate. You kind of tend to adopt that same style, so we don\u2019t really have anything written about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Cool. So I think my last question for today is about\u2026 I\u2019ve been thinking about this topic about employee happiness and customer happiness. Like, I have this hypothesis, as in, \u201cIf your team is happy, then your customers will be happy because\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there was a title yesterday, a study that proved exactly that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, really?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll look for it again. Yeah, it just came out yesterday.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, yeah, so I was actually thinking to write a blog post about this. So, yeah, the hypothesis is that, \u201cIf your team is happy,\u201d which I think remote work provides that added value of, you know, flexibility, freedom, and so on, \u201cit actually will cause your customers to be happier.\u201d Why? Because even, like, if you\u2019re a customer support or a customer champion, for example, because you\u2019re in a good mood every day, you just have this extra friendliness when you\u2019re replying to tickets, right? Or if you\u2019re a sales team, you just have this energy to just do that one more follow-up emails, one more follow-up calls. My question would be, \u201cHow much do you agree with this? Do you also see this concept reflected on the Balsamiq team?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0So I agree with your conclusion, but not with your premise. So working remotely doesn\u2019t necessarily mean you\u2019re gonna be happy at all. In fact, it\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a philosophical question, even. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but there is this misconception that, you know, \u201cOh, working remotely is so great.\u201d You know, working remotely, it is great for many reasons, and I wouldn\u2019t go back. And, you know, I\u2019m talking out of my home. Even though we have an office not far from my house, I prefer to work at home. But it also has a lot of drawbacks. Loneliness. You know, humans are social animals. If you don\u2019t see anybody all day, it hurts. It hurts your morale. It hurts your body physically, too. So I wouldn\u2019t say that being remote is what makes you happy. Sure, commuting makes you very unhappy. We know that, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0True. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Working in a very loud office makes you very unhappy. But there\u2019s also social aspects of spending time in the same location that are positive, for sure. Now, the other thing, the other lesson that was a kind of eye-opening is that it\u2019s not my job to make my employees happy. Happiness is an internal thing. It comes from inside. You kind of decide to be happy or not. So I can\u2019t make you happy just like, \u201cBe happy, now.\u201d You know, you just can\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So what my job is, is to create an environment where people who want to be happy can be happy, where people feel supported and free to be whatever they want to be.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, do happier employees make happier customers? I want to read the study that came out yesterday, too. I\u2019m curious about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It makes sense, in theory, right? Of course. Especially with support, right? When you call some phone company, and you talk to them, and you can just see how miserable they are, of course, I\u2019m gonna be unhappy, because I feel bad for them. You know, the trick there is to have good policies that allow people to have enough freedom to do well by the customer, right? And then they\u2019re just applying the policy, which is, \u201cI\u2019m gonna try to help the customer up to a point that we define so that, you know, it doesn\u2019t drive us out of business.\u201d But, in general, you\u2019re free to do that, so that makes you feel better because you\u2019re helping other people. And then, you know, a designer who needs to design something while they\u2019re depressed, that might not come out as joyful of a design. But I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know. These things are hard to measure, so I\u2019m interested to reading how they studied that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool. Yeah, awesome. It has been an amazing episode. We start with entrepreneurship, remote, and we end up talking about happiness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s what the Italian uncle will do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Awesome, Peldi. So, yeah, thank you so much for your time today, and I learned a lot from this conversation. I really hope the audience, they learn a thing or two, especially about happiness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, sure. And if anybody has any questions, you can find me at peldi@balsamiq.com.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Oh, yeah, about that. Other than email, is there any other place where people can find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. We have a Slack community where people can ask anything. I offer an office hours. Once a week, I meet with someone, usually entrepreneurs, to give them advice on their business. So all these things you can find on our website, balsamiq.com with a Q.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Cool. And for listeners, if you go to Peldi\u2019s LinkedIn, you see under his description\u2026 And I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s still there. But I remember looking at your LinkedIn a long time ago, and it said that, \u201cIf you try to poach Balsamiq\u2019s employee, I will find you.\u201d That\u2019s so funny. I was like, \u201cOkay. These guys are hardcore.\u201d I mean, okay. Right. Awesome, Peldi. Again, thank you so much for your time, and I wish you a great day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Peldi:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, everybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s it for another episode of Outside The Valley, brought to you by Arc. We created this podcast with a hope that in each episode, you can learn something new from other remote startup people. So if you have any feedback or suggestions, please don\u2019t hesitate to reach out to me at jovian@arc.dev. It\u2019s J-O-V-I-A-N at A-R-C dot D-E-V, or you can find us on Twitter, @arcdotdev. See you next week with another episode of Outside The Valley, and ciao.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Peldi, Founder and CEO of Balsamiq, shared why continuous learning and experimental mindset in a company is 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