{"id":602,"date":"2019-11-05T19:13:00","date_gmt":"2019-11-05T17:13:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=602"},"modified":"2025-06-11T12:28:05","modified_gmt":"2025-06-11T04:28:05","slug":"communicating-expectations-john-doherty","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/communicating-expectations-john-doherty\/","title":{"rendered":"Communicating Expectations Well: John Doherty of Credo"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You know, life is too short to work with jerks. So, you know, I think that\u2019s really important. And yeah, sussing out those communication skills is really, really important.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Today on the show, we have the CEO and Founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.getcredo.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Credo<\/a>, John Doherty. Credo is a platform where you can hire reliable, vetted marketing professionals. This week\u2019s episode is less about remote work itself, but more about managing and communicating expectations \u2014 whether you\u2019re a leader of a company, a client, or a freelance consultant.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also talk about managing communities associated with a marketplace-style business, and John\u2019s thoughts on building a bootstrapped, profitable company outside of Silicon Valley.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>John is also one\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.codementor.io\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Codementor\u2019s<\/a>\u00a0(an Arc product) happy users, and it really was a pleasure to have him on the podcast. Enjoy the episode!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favourite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL291dHNpZGUtdGhlLXZhbGxleQ%3D%3D&hl=en-TW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>4:30 \u2014 How John keeps in touch with the Credo community.<\/li><li>7:00 \u2014 Has John\u2019s mindset about remote work changed over the years?<\/li><li>11:05 \u2014 The difference between managing a client vs managing a product.<\/li><li>14:30 \u2014 How a leader can be better at writing expectations, especially in a remote organization.<\/li><li>20:00 \u2014 What soft skills John looks for when hiring a remote contractor.<\/li><li>28:32 \u2014 How remote freelancers can \u201csell\u201d themselves better.<\/li><li>32:28 \u2014 John\u2019s thoughts on building a profitable business outside of Silicon Valley.<\/li><li>35:06 \u2014 Can you build connections remotely?<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.getcredo.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Credo<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.codementor.io\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Codementor<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.getcredo.com\/credo-team\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Credo team page<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.johnfdoherty.com\/dont-hire-remote-workers\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Don\u2019t Hire Remote Workers by John Doherty<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/ep2-social-connections-remote-claire-lew-7r9yxgn9fi\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew \u2013 Building Social Trust in Remote Teams<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/johnmu\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">John Mueller<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/mattcutts\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Matt Cutts<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Million-Dollar-Consulting-Professionals-Practice-ebook\/dp\/B01DNEC4B2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Million Dollar Consulting<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.indiehackers.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Indie Hackers<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/basecamp.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Basecamp<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.zillow.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Zillow<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.usv.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Union Square Ventures<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/fredwilson\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Fred Wilson<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/levelsio\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pieter Levels<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/nomadlist.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Nomad List<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/brennandunn\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Brennan Dunn<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/doubleyourfreelancing.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Double Your Freelancing<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.indiehackers.com\/podcast\/059-john-doherty-of-credo\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Indie Hackers\u2019 interview with John Doherty<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Jason\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Jason Calacanis<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=-reFgHFwOmE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">John Doherty\u2019s interview on This Week In Startups<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/dohertyjf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">John Doherty\u2019s Twitter<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dohertyjf\/?hl=en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">John Doherty\u2019s Instagram<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Hello, world. Welcome to another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d the podcast where we interview remote startup leaders, remote workers, remote work advocates, and companies who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. This is the show where remote companies share what works and what doesn\u2019t so you can do it right. \u201cOutside the Valley\u201d is brought to you by Arc, the remote hiring platform that helps you hire remote software engineer and teams easily. I\u2019m your host for today, Jovian Gautama.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today on the show, we have John Doherty, the CEO and founder of Credo, a platform where you can hire reliable, vetted marketing professionals. This week\u2019s episode is a bit special. It\u2019s less about remote work itself, but more about managing and communicating expectations, whether if you are a leader of a company, a client hiring freelance consultants, or if you are a freelance consultant yourself. We also talk about managing communities affiliated with a marketplace style business and John\u2019s thoughts on building a bootstrap, profitable company outside of Silicon Valley. I really enjoyed the episode. John is a fantastic guy, and I hope you\u2019ll enjoy it, too. Here we go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. Today I\u2019m sitting with John Doherty, the founder and CEO of Credo. Hey, John, how is it going?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Good, Jovian. How are you doing today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. It\u2019s awesome. Yeah, let\u2019s just kick this off then. Just to start, can you tell me more about yourself and your company, Credo?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. So my name is John and I live in Denver, Colorado. And so I\u2019ve been in the digital marketing industry for about a decade now. And I\u2019ve worked agency-side, in house, and then also for the last four years running my own company. Been through a lot, seen a lot, worked with a lot of really awesome companies helping them drive organic growth. And what I\u2019ve been doing for the last four years is basically helping companies find and hire the right digital marketing firm for their needs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So at Credo, basically what we do, basically, what Codementor or CodementorX, is now Arc, does for helping companies find developers, a high touch, white glove approach to helping them find, hire, and pay developers. That\u2019s what Credo does for the digital marketing industry. Yeah, so over the last four years, we\u2019ve helped a few thousand businesses get connected up with great digital marketing firms. I\u2019ve seen over $70 million dollars in digital marketing projects come through, you know, come across our plates. Obviously, not all data has closed but, you know, we\u2019ve worked with everyone from, you know, small mom and pop shops, all the way up to some of the biggest companies in the world helping them find the right digital marketing talent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s awesome. Can you share a bit more about how did you create Credo on the first place, like the history of it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, for sure. So, like most products, it came out of meeting my own need. So I was working for an agency in 2012, 2013. And I got to the end of 2012 and had gotten a promotion and was pretty tired. And I was doing some side consulting as well. I was like, \u201cI\u2019m gonna stop consulting.\u201d I was 28, single, living in Brooklyn, New York. And so I stopped taking on consulting clients.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>People were like, \u201cWell, who should we work with?\u201d And I told my current clients, I was like, \u201cI\u2019m stopping at the end of the month.\u201d And they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, who should we work with?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u201d And so I literally built out a Google Sheet of people that I knew that they could work and started referring clients to them. And then I was like, \u201cWait, lead generation is a big business.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so I e-mailed\u2026 I got another client that was perfect for a buddy of mine. I e-mailed him. I\u2019m like, \u201cHey, man, would you be willing to\u2026here\u2019s the lead. Would you be willing to pay 50 bucks for the intro?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, absolutely. What\u2019s your PayPal?\u201d And so 50 or 3 minutes later, l had 50 bucks in my PayPal account, sent him the lead. He closed it into a couple thousand dollar\u2026 You know, he made thousands of dollars from this lead. And I went and bought a domain name.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I started working. So that was February, March 2013. I started working on it full-time September 2015 when I got laid off from my last job. And so we rebranded and then we\u2019ve been through a bunch of different business models, but now\u2026 And I did that when I was living in San Francisco, but so Credo is all bootstrapped. I now have a small team and we\u2019re based in Denver, Colorado.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Great, and how many marketing providers are there now on your platform?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Somewhere around a hundred is about what we have right now. So we don\u2019t focus on freelancers. We focus on marketing firms, marketing agencies, and senior marketing consultants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And an interesting thing about building a marketplace startup, it\u2019s similar to Codementor, similar to Arc and also Credo, right? When it grows bigger, seems like it\u2019s easy to lose touch with the so-said community, right? In Codementor, we have thousands of mentors in Arc, also hundreds and thousands of developers either freelance or full-timers. And sometimes actually, it\u2019s not easy to update them and keep close because in a way, they are our customers, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you do for a sale? How do you keep the relationships between you and these agencies?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s a good question. The answer is that it\u2019s really hard. And once you hit a certain scale, it\u2019s not possible to do like it was when you had, you know, 20. So historically, we\u2019ve had a set of agencies that we had called our preferred agencies. Our bank would basically hang on for a month to get leads, and then paying us commission on work that they closed. So those are really like our best customers. And then we basically had our directory. That\u2019s actually changing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we\u2019re kind of in that transition phase right now. And so basically, we\u2019re gonna be building out kind of account management layers. So, you know, agencies that are closing more work, basically, we\u2019re gonna give them, you know, more support, Agencies that need more support with multiple seats and that sort of stuff we\u2019re gonna give them more support. And, you know, and others that are maybe just like billing a project a year, two projects a year, they don\u2019t need that high touch right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0We can have like, a light touch and just, you know, occasional e-mails and that sort of thing. So it really comes down to like the 80, 20 of it, right? Like at Codementor keeping in touch with the best ones that are working with the biggest clients to make sure that they\u2019re happy, make sure that the clients are happy, that\u2019s gonna do way more than getting in touch with someone that might do one project a year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And how many core team members do you have in Credo right now, including your dog, of course?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Including my dog, there\u2019s four. Not including my dog, there\u2019s three.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty lean.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we\u2019re super lean. Myself, a business development guy, and then my developer, you know, kind of lead technical person and he\u2019s like 60%, 70%, but I really think of him as a partner in the business. And then we have some other like contractors. I have a finance contractor and a link building contractor and a business coach and, you know, that sort of stuff as well. So but really, like, core team is three plus my dog, which is four.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. That\u2019s awesome. So in terms of team management, so, back down in 2011, you wrote an article, it\u2019s so-called \u201cDon\u2019t hire remote workers.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0But for our listeners, I\u2019ll add this on the show. And you can find the articles there. And it\u2019s very old in internet years. It\u2019s like centuries old.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Very old.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And how do I know this is old? You mentioned about using Skype, GChat and Google Plus. You can be catching them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Do I still mention Google Plus? Oh, no.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you mentioned\u2026 Two of them are dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s been a while now. So do you still have the same mindset as you did back in 2011 when it comes to hiring?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely not. Yeah, it\u2019s funny kind of looking back because I haven\u2019t looked at this in a really long time. And it\u2019s funny because, at the time, I was working for an agency that was spread across three different offices in Seattle, New York, and London. And basically, I wrote this because it\u2019s really challenging to have\u2026 And I have to say further down that I don\u2019t think that always hiring remote workers is always a bad idea. I think the company has to be set up for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So my wife, for example, works for Trello. And they\u2019re 70%, 75% remote, but they have things built into their culture that everyone feels like they\u2019re remote, basically, and then remote workers don\u2019t feel like second-class citizens. You know, I have\u2026my core team is all here in Denver. I just happened to find the right people here. I worked with some, you know, part-time people that were remote, and it just didn\u2019t work out for me, honestly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Like, I know how to manage. I don\u2019t know how to onboard and train and then manage effectively, get them to, you know, be bought into the mission, vision, and values of the company. I don\u2019t know how to do that effectively.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I can do it in person, for sure. But then, you know, I also have actually a freelance developer who\u2019s based in Ohio, right, who did a bunch of work for me back in the day and now he\u2019s back doing work for us. But, you know, my technical lead is managing him. So, you know, I\u2019m not completely against it. I\u2019ve seen it work really well. I\u2019ve also seen it work badly, you know, and honestly, for me at this point like I\u2019m based in Denver. I love Denver. I love the mindset of people here in Denver. And I like building my company in Denver.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Yeah, I think it\u2019s a good lesson for startup founders out there. You got to have your culture and team set up so these talents are facilitated to perform at their best level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, and it\u2019s, you know, and it\u2019s really hard, I\u2019ve found\u2026 You may have a different perspective on this, I\u2019m sure. But I\u2019ve found that it\u2019s hard to work with remote people when you don\u2019t quite have what they\u2019re working on to find. We don\u2019t have the roles to find the specific tasks and that sort of thing. So if you\u2019re trying to work with them to like, you know, solve problems and work out new things, then that\u2019s gonna be really hard to do, especially if they\u2019re not full-time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But, you know, if they are, then it would probably be a lot easier, but if they\u2019re not, then you know, they\u2019re basically like a contractor and you\u2019re asking them to, you know, lead this part of your company. It\u2019s just the incentives are misaligned there. And that\u2019s definitely a mistake, you know, that I made versus just like, \u201cWe\u2019re building out this thing and we need these specific things done, right? We\u2019re gonna loop you into our JIRA. We\u2019re gonna get you working on those things.\u201d You know, in that case, it can work very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So it\u2019s just really like, what\u2019s the role that you\u2019re hiring for? And does that need to be in person or can that be remote if you find the right person?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, I think this is a good segue to the next part, which I wanna talk about communication skills as a remote leader. I mean, John, I know that your core team members are basically in\u2026are co-located. But I guess since you have also experience with, you know, more freelancers, and, of course, working with remote clients, like those clients are not people that you sit down in a meeting room with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So I wanna talk about this skill, how to sharpen this skill, especially when you were a consultant before. So I felt like just like startups, solo consulting is one of the gateways to build remote company, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So you used to work in an office, and then you moved out and started solo consulting. You started finding clients yourself remotely on the internet, and then you subcontract some work. And then boom before you know it, you have a somewhat like, hybrid company or remote company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0My question would be now, it\u2019s you are kind of like managing a product now, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So did the mindset of working with clients help when it comes to managing your own product or what\u2019s the biggest difference?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, man, I mean, the difference between consulting and managing a product is like, it\u2019s vast. It\u2019s so, I mean, I did learn a lot of\u2026 You know, I\u2019ve learned a lot of skills over the years. You know, I\u2019ve rarely had clients in the city where I live. I\u2019ve never had a consulting client in Denver, when I was living in New York, mostly right out around the country, and I had some overseas. I had some like in the UK and things like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When I was consulting, you know, in San Francisco, and then even here in Denver, you know, my clients are basically in New York and San Francisco because, you know, I\u2019ve lived in those places. I have contacts in those places, that sort of thing, and, you know, these are very large, very well known, like, worldwide brands that I personally, you know, worked with. And so really, when it\u2019s remote, what I\u2019ve found in consulting is that, I mean, really, it comes down to a lot\u2026 And I tell our agencies and consultants this all the time. It really comes down to that communication, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0So the other thing, you know, is basically being very clear in the contract, in the proposal, like what it is you\u2019re gonna be working on, you know, and then especially when it\u2019s like\u2026because I charge a lot of money for my own consulting when I do it. I haven\u2019t done any consulting since April. Like I\u2019m full-on product CEO at this point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But, you know, when I\u2019ve been doing my own consulting it\u2019s been very specific about, \u201cThese are the things that I do,\u201d and then basically helping them build out the structure. We\u2019re doing weekly video calls. I\u2019m telling them, you know, basic deliverable dates. Like, when am I gonna have these audits to you? How am I gonna work with your team, that sort of thing? And then for me, also, like, I mean, you know, I\u2019ve had companies pay me five figures a month to consult with them, right? So like, at that range, I do, go visit them, right? I\u2019d go visit them every couple months in New York or San Francisco. And I definitely found that that helped, you know, a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I wasn\u2019t just like, you know, a \u201cSEO services provider.\u201d I was basically acting as like their director of SEO or director SEO, right, and then helping them hire teams that\u2019s basically my model. So it was a little bit different model than like, a freelancer. Like, I\u2019ve never called myself a freelancer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0But when it comes to managing a product, man, oh, my gosh, it\u2019s completely different. I mean, because you have like multiple teams, and yeah, communication and all that and working across teams because even when you\u2019re just doing like, you know, if you\u2019re just consulting on or you\u2019re just doing development, right, if you\u2019re operating\u2026 If you\u2019re just like writing code, right, the same as just like, if you\u2019re just like writing content for someone as a marketer, that\u2019s a very different thing than like kind of the level that I operate on, which is like working with their teams, and really helping them unblock themselves for growth, helping them get things done because I\u2019ve grown\u2026I\u2019ve managed SEO teams. I\u2019ve managed growth teams. I\u2019ve managed growth engineers. I\u2019ve done all of that, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I can see across the teams and really like get people on the same side and get them talking together and speaking the same language to actually unlock that growth. And that\u2019s really what I do now, right? I work like sales and tech, and then I\u2019m kind of heading up like product vision and marketing and all of that. I can kind of see the bigger picture and help different people communicate, you know, together. So that\u2019s just like, internally is how I do it. And then with a product, I mean, we\u2019re basically selling, you know, specific like plans, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we basically have like, membership plans. And that is, I mean, I\u2019ve basically taken\u2026 I mean, you have to distill it down into a package, right? This isn\u2019t custom stuff. I\u2019ve done custom stuff before. That\u2019s fine for getting it off the ground, right, and really learning what people need but eventually, you basically have to productize it as a product company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s interesting that I think as a consultant and as a CEO of a product, you basically\u2026 It all comes to one thing. This is cliche. You got to repeat it again, over again, but that\u2019s the most important, which is communications, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So last time I talked to Claire Lou from Know Your Team, and she was talking about how in remote companies or when you\u2019re working with someone remotely, one of the most influential weapon that you can do or that you can have is have good writing skills or be a good writer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And I know that you are one of the most prolific writers out there. You just keep at things like constantly and you understand that this is something that you\u2019re good at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so I guess when you\u2019re working with clients or remote team writing is very important. So my question will be currently, in this current situation, how does your writing skills come to play when it comes to communicating your vision, your project, or directions, etc, especially when you\u2019re working with freelance contractors? And how can a founder or someone be better at writing and communicating this stuff like project specs, directions or advice to clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep, totally, I think it\u2019s a great question. So kind of how we do it here at Credo is, for every major feature, we basically build out a feature document. And I actually have one pulled up because I was just working on one for a feature that we have coming up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so basically, what we do here is, so I let my technical partner, Ali, he is basically the one that figures out what\u2019s the best way to build this and the best way to implement this, right? I basically look at it as the, I mean, basically as a PM and I say, like, \u201cWhat are the core problems that we\u2019re solving here?\u201d And then on our marketplaces, is what\u2019s the problem we\u2019re solving for the client with this feature? What\u2019s the problem we\u2019re solving for the pro, right?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, you know, your case is freelance developers. For us, it\u2019s marketing ease. And then what\u2019s the Credo problem that we\u2019re solving, right? So not all of them are having a problem solved. But ideally, as you\u2019re building a marketplace, you have to solve, you know. And the future you\u2019re building it\u2019s like your solving problems on both sides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So we do basically what\u2019s the core problem? What are the proposed solutions? So like, how do we solve that problem? And then we basically go on and we research. Like, what are the different ways that we could do it?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So we\u2019re built all on WordPress. So what are the WordPress plugins that we could use, what are our membership plugins that we could use, or do we build it out? And then, also like, what are other tools that we could white-label, we could integrate JavaScript libraries, what have you or do we just need to build it custom, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And so we\u2019re all just making that trade-off, right, with our limited time, limited resources, money, development, time, people, that kind of stuff? You know, is it worth our time? A typical product problem.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Is it a typical server problem? Is it worth our time to build it ourselves? Should we build it ourselves or is there something that we can basically like, buy to get us up to speed much quicker?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then if we decide to build custom, I let Ali take care of basically: how do we get it done. And then we work together on prioritization and scoping and that sort of stuff. So honestly, like writing is a superpower for an entrepreneur, for a marketer, for an entrepreneur, you know, for someone like operating on the internet, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so for us, like when we\u2019re working with, you know, freelance developers, you know, that sort of stuff, I\u2019m very specific and like, this is basically what we need to accomplish, right? These are the problems that we\u2019re looking to solve. And then I basically want you to think about how do we best solve this, right? I\u2019m not gonna tell you like, \u201cBuild it in Rails and use this thing and just, like, get it done,\u201d right? No one wants to be doing that. I don\u2019t wanna work with people that just wanna be that way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I want people that are thinking about it and they\u2019re like, \u201cActually, we could do it, you know, this way. But I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best way. I think we should do it this way because of X, Y, and Z.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat, you go do that.\u201d You know, I\u2019m all about empowering people and not, like, putting people into a box and telling them. \u201cYou have to work within this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Obviously, like, we\u2019re on WordPress, and if someone\u2019s like, \u201cWell, we should build this in Rails, but that means you\u2019re gonna have to redo the whole thing in Rails,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOut of the question. How do we this within the tech stack that we have?\u201d Same with like, you know, selling a project, right? So with, like with freelancers, you know, figuring out how to sell the project, there\u2019s an infinite number of things that you can do, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And maybe a client comes to you and they\u2019re like, \u201cWe need\u2026 You know, we\u2019re trying to solve this problem.\u201d And you could go and pitch them on a, you know, $100K project to completely redo their website, and redo their app, and rebuild it in the latest and greatest technology and all that sort of thing, right? And they come back and they\u2019re like, \u201cI just needed to build in multiple users to my app, right? And I\u2019m not on Rails. I\u2019m on WordPress,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, like, you way over-pitch them and they\u2019re never gonna sign off on that, right? So you basically need to determine like what is the thing that they\u2019re looking to solve and what\u2019s the thing they\u2019re actually gonna sign off on that also gets them to the goals that they\u2019re trying to accomplish?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that\u2019s the work that you pitch and so you make it very clear that like, you know, \u201cIf I could have any unlimited budget, I would do this. But since we don\u2019t and because you\u2019re not going to be redoing the app and all that stuff, here\u2019s how we do it. Here\u2019s how I recommend that we do it, you know, within WordPress and here\u2019s basically what it\u2019s going to cost.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So based on your experience when you are hiring contractors, other than, of course, when you hire a contractor, you prefer to find those who somewhat already vetted, already tested out there. Someone with a great resume or a great experience already have, like, way public profile like in Codementor or in Arc, but other than that, if you go deeper, what are the soft skill traits that you\u2019re looking when you\u2019re hiring these contractors? Let\u2019s say this person right here, I know that he or she got the experience, got the skill sets and what else? What soft skill are you looking for?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s a good question. So really, I\u2019m looking for communication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m looking for\u2026so when I\u2019m looking to hire someone, right, I\u2019m not just looking for, like, a developer, right? If I\u2019m looking to hire someone to help us out on Credo, I\u2019m looking for someone that has experience working with WordPress, right, and custom WordPress apps because that\u2019s what we have. So I\u2019m looking for basically the people that are experts in that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So basically, what I tell agencies and what I tell freelancers, right, when people are like, \u201cWell, how do I, like, message myself? And how do I market myself?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cBare-bones minimum on your site, on your profiles, that sort of stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You need to show your face. You need to show who you are as a person.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You need to say, \u2018This is the kind of work that I do. And these are the kinds of companies that I do it for.'\u201d So those right clients can be like, \u201cBoom, that\u2019s me. I\u2019m contacting you,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah, I see, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0But if they\u2019re like\u2026 You know, if you work on WordPress sites, right, custom WordPress apps exclusively, someone that has a full Rails app that they\u2019re not moving off of Rails anytime soon, they\u2019re not gonna contact you and that\u2019s fine. They\u2019re not qualified for you anyways. You don\u2019t even work on Rails apps. So you don\u2019t even need them contacting you, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s like you focus on this stuff that you do, you know, the people that you do the best work for. And then, you know, for me, it\u2019s basically like, you know, I hop on video calls with them and basically it\u2019s like, \u201cCan I communicate with them? Can we work through problems together?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, I have actually worked with some people through Codementor. And I was trying to solve problems, and I was writing all the code on Credo. You know, I had worked with people and I was like, \u201cCan I communicate with this person? Can we work through problems together?\u201d And that\u2019s just super valuable for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I don\u2019t want somebody that\u2019s just like, \u201cHere\u2019s a brief. Go build it. And don\u2019t talk to me again until it\u2019s built,\u201d right? I want them to come back. I want them to be asking questions, as I actually like to talk with them through the problem and see how they think about solving that problem. I care way more\u2026 Obviously, I care about can they actually solve it technically or like in marketing can they actually, like, do the marketing work? Can they build the links? Can they create the content? Can they do the technical SEO? That stuff matters, absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But for me beyond that, once that stuff\u2026 That\u2019s bare-bones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Once that stuff is taken care of, then it\u2019s how do they think through problems and do they actually solve these problems? And can we collaborate and solve them together? That\u2019s what\u2019s more important to me. So do they have good communication skills, right? Do they respond to e-mails basically, right? Like, if I send them an e-mail, and they don\u2019t respond for three days, that\u2019s a problem.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, especially like asking them a question, you know, if they don\u2019t wanna be involved in, like, you know, conversations about stuff, that\u2019s a problem for me. So, you know, that\u2019s really what I look for, and those are the kinds of soft skills that they need. And you need to really\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, what I would say is, if you\u2019re trying to get clients as a freelancer, you need to be very clear on, you know, who you are, and basically, like, how you work, who you do the best work for, and what that work is that you do for them and, you know, state it as cleanly as that. And that will help you qualify people in and out real quick.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I totally resonate with that. So and a small anecdote from myself is on the early days of CodementorX, which is now Arc, so I was one of the first non-technical team members of CodementorX. I\u2019m basically like, almost like employee number one for CodementorX? So, I was there talking to, \u201cvetting\u201d these developers through a introductory call first. And, of course, after I match them with our clients, and in the introductory call, this is where we kind of evaluate how it feels to communicate with this person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the rule of thumb is, \u201cCan I see this person working with my clients?\u201d And this is very qualitative, but it\u2019s actually your gut feeling is actually right. Like, \u201cMan, I don\u2019t think I can really work with this guy.\u201d I mean, he or she might be a really great developers on paper. But sometimes when you talk to them, it\u2019s not necessarily clicking, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So yeah, I totally can resonate with it. So that\u2019s why I think for us on our platform\u2026 This will sound kind of salesy. So, but on our part, we actually care a lot about, \u201cDo I see this person working with our clients out there?\u201d I\u2019m not necessarily talking about the big brands, but also like the early-stage startup founders with this ideas and the budget to work with us. Can this people direct the client, so to speak? So yeah, that\u2019s one of the top requirements for us actually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0And we do the same thing at Credo. We have a three-step vetting process for the people within our network. And that the first one is culture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So we do a culture call with them. And basically within that call, I\u2019m sussing out, \u201cDo I like this person?\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m still the one doing the calls, right, on this side. I\u2019m sussing out like, \u201cDo I like this person?\u201d You know, do I trust them to basically like, be good to the people that we refer to them?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then also on the client side when clients are coming in looking to hire, if someone seems like they\u2019re gonna be a total pain or they\u2019re like, you know, they\u2019re not really bought in, they\u2019re skeptical, like, you know, that sort of thing or they just wanna like put a little bit of budget into it, they don\u2019t actually wanna invest in it, or they\u2019re just a jerk, we won\u2019t match them up. We\u2019ll be like, \u201cSorry, we can\u2019t help you out,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You know, life is too short to work with jerks. So, you know, I think that\u2019s really important. And yeah, sussing out those communication skills is really, really important.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0What are the most revealing questions? What are the top questions that you ask to assess if this agency is a great culture fit for your clients or not when you\u2019re vetting them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so and, obviously, you know, every client is different. And so, you know, we have people with various personalities and all that kind of working [inaudible 00:25:42], right? And so we\u2019ll have, you know, someone come in. They were like, \u201cYou know what? This person, this agency, like, does phenomenal work in this space, but, like, the founder that\u2019s doing sales and the client just wouldn\u2019t get along. Like they\u2019re just never gonna work together so we won\u2019t even introduce them.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the things that I really look for is when I\u2019m interviewing, you know, a firm or a consultant looking to get into the Credo network, I\u2019m really trying to figure out, you know, basically like, what does their company look like? So how do they manage clients not just through like the sales process? Like, do they have an established sales process?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then I ask them, it\u2019s just an open-ended question,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>\u201cWhat happens after you sell the client? Who\u2019s talking to them? How is the handoff, right? How are you delivering work? How are you communicating?\u201d All those sorts of things to really understand do they have a built-in process for this and have they really thought about it? You know, like there are multiple ways that you can structure it, you know, and none is better than another. I just care that they\u2019ve really thought through it and they actually have an established process.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s really, really important to me and also asking them, you know, upfront like when a new, you know, client comes in, when a new prospect comes in\u2026 I call them prospects instead of leads. When a new prospect comes in, who\u2019s talking with them, right, and what does your process look like for them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0So those are the sorts of things that I really look for. And then there\u2019s a little bit of vetting in there as well, especially with SEO because there\u2019s white hat SEO, there\u2019s black hat SEO. And there\u2019s all the shades within there and really trying to figure out, like, are they doing stuff that\u2019s above the board that, like, they\u2019d be proud to show?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, John Mueller, you know, Gary or any of those guys that\u2026 You know, in the past, it was Matt Cutts, who was head of Google\u2019s webspam, right? The question is like if Matt Cutts was standing behind you, would you show him this proudly, right, and not get in trouble for it when he goes back to the office? I\u2019m basically trying to suss that sort of stuff out as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. On your question about how do you handle this con after you\u2019ve got the deal, it\u2019s kind of similar with what we do in Arc. The question for the contractors or the freelance developers here is that, so let\u2019s say something happens that you actually need some more time from the client or a feature is delayed because of some things and how to communicate that with the client.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we kind of wanna know how to communicate this issue because as you know about software development, it\u2019s never as it is in paper. There\u2019s some delay, some trade-offs to be made, and so on. So yeah, I think it\u2019s kind of similar in the vein that how do these people in your case, the agencies, or in our case, the developers, give the clients the best experience on that. So I wanna flip it to the developers or contractors side themselves, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Bearing developers or people who are \u201cjerks,\u201d that is not the people you want to work with. There are also like probably some newbie contractors and or newbie freelancers out there that they are a very nice guy, hard-working, and they have the skill set, but they\u2019re using this early stage that they don\u2019t really know how to sell themselves on an interview. Since you are one of those target markets, so to speak, you are one of the clients. Any advice that you will give to them in order for them to sell themselves better?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Absolutely, and this is something that we thought about a lot. And actually, with this like basically new system, we\u2019ve kind of rebuilt Credo from the ground up. We\u2019re actually implementing kind of a coaching offering as well to help people sell better work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we\u2019ve basically built into our platform the sales process that we know closes work. So basically, the way we see it is it\u2019s a four to five-step process. It\u2019s kind of depending on the size of the project. So first of all, it\u2019s figuring out why are they coming to you, right? Ask them what problem they\u2019re solving, and why did they contact you instead of contacting somebody else. And then getting them on a phone call and basically talking through that, discovering, you know, the problem they\u2019re looking to solve. Why do they have that problem? How do they think they\u2019re gonna solve it? What team do they have in place? All of those sorts of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then from there, you can either send them basically a proposed scope of work, right, by e-mail to get them to agree to that. And then you send them a proposal, if it\u2019s a bigger project, get them on a longer strategy call and take a couple of days to research it, go deeper, and come back with some ideas around how you solve it, how you work. It\u2019s really important to get clear on, you know, \u201cThis is who I am, this is the kind of work that I do, and this is who I do it for.\u201d So then, you know, you\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Basically, when a lead has contacted you yes, they\u2019re interviewing you about you working for them but you should also be interviewing them about you doing work for them.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Which I think is really important and a lot of freelancers miss, right? So if you can get down to that niche of like, \u201cThis is the kind of technology I work on or these are the marketing channels that I do. And this is how I operate within that, right, services versus consulting,\u201d you kind of have to figure all that out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then it makes it very easy to say like, \u201cYou know what? Like you definitely have a problem here, but like I\u2019m not the person to help you solve it. Let me [inaudible 00:30:36] or let me send you to Arc to do it,\u201d or within marketing, it\u2019s like, \u201cLet me send you Credo to see if they can find you the right people.\u201d So I think that\u2019s really important. Two books that I\u2019ve been recommending people a lot. One is called \u201cMillion Dollar Consulting,\u201d by Alan Weiss. The other one is called \u201cMillion Dollar Coach,\u201d by Taki Moore. And they both have awesome sales strategies around, you know, basically selling yourself well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I got it. I think just like the newbie sales problem, sometimes when you\u2019re new to it, you just basically you wanna sell it yourself. But actually the key is listening to what the clients want in the early beginning. Like, take as much information as possible, and then try to formulate things about it. And I totally agree about that one, that you mentioned that you be honest when you\u2019re not the right person to do this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve definitely had some cases in the past, where, you know, we usually recommend two or three developers for our clients, right? And there are some cases when the first interview the developer just said that, \u201cOh, I\u2019m probably not the right person.\u201d For example, apparently, after the interview, they did not realize that this needs more [inaudible 00:31:34] skills than he or she has. And then oh, a problem and then I\u2019ll pass because they don\u2019t want to give subpar work. Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So moving to the next conversation, which is like a bigger topic in itself, basically about startups being Outside the Silicon Valley.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, you\u2019ve been to Silicon Valley before. Now, you create your own startup in Denver.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019ve seen that on the startup scene. Like, from my observation, there is this trend of, \u201cOh, I want to be a profitable startup.\u201d This is like the, you know the Indie Hackers path, the base camp path, right? Do you see this as\u2026 Is it trending again now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0To be profitable?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah [inaudible 00:32:31].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I don\u2019t think it was ever not trendy. I think they\u2019re\u2026 I mean, it\u2019s definitely like, you know, the sexy so and so raised like tens of millions of dollars, you know, that kind of thing. But I think actually, as you get into it, you realize that that actually comes with a lot of liabilities. And so, you know, there\u2019s a ton of other like stress and all that that goes into it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, really what we\u2019re talking about is creating viable businesses, right, startups, like [inaudible 00:33:00] in the valley, those, and I know I might get flamed for this. But, you know, I\u2019ve made it clear that like, you know,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I think most businesses should not take venture funding. And I actually think that most startups should not be in the Valley, right?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The Valley is great for, you know, [inaudible 00:33:19]. That\u2019s where Google and Facebook\u2026that\u2019s where stuff came from. Microsoft was born up in Seattle, so was Zillow, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, there have been a lot of companies that have been\u2026 Even in New York like I always say like, San Francisco is very, like technology and kind of futuristic focused and that sort of stuff. And I lived there for three years. So I know the city and I know the scene.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also lived in New York for two and a half. And they\u2019re more focused on like, you know, that yeah, there are a lot of\u2026 You know, there\u2019s Silicon Alley is what they call it, like Flat Iron district. But, you know, there\u2019s a lot of startups there that have taken funding, but they\u2019re focused on like\u2026 You know, they\u2019re taking on funding, but they actually have like a solid business in mind and in the works, and so they\u2019re actually building a real business there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, so like Union Square Ventures does a lot of work there. I respect the heck out of Fred Wilson, the Union Square Ventures crowd, but, you know, I think there are a lot of people that have been focused on building profitable businesses, right, couple-person businesses, the Indie Hackers the, you know, Peter Levels from Nomad List, like all these people, you know, Brendan Dunn of Double Your Freelancing, like all these sorts of things. There\u2019s a lot of people out there doing this sort of stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think the Internet has just quite simply brought\u2026 It\u2019s become a bit more en vogue, maybe but because of the rise of platforms, like Indie Hackers, right? You know, I love the guys over at Indie Hackers. They\u2019re really good dudes, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And I think it\u2019s cool that people are seeing now that like, it is possible to build, you know, a profitable, viable internet-based technology business without having to go for broke and go for massive scale and hire a ton of people. And also, technology has gotten to the point where you can do that, right?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You can tie together a bunch of plugins and that sort of stuff. You don\u2019t have to go and spend 50K to build a custom app, you know, in order to do something, right? You can bring in membership plugins and that sort of stuff and launch a membership site on WordPress in under a day. Like, that\u2019s pretty incredible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, totally. I think one of the arguments that people say when they said, \u201cOh, if you wanna build startup you have to move to San Francisco,\u201d is the connections that you can create, especially when you\u2019re in the so-called tech hub. How do you see this? Like is it possible to build meaningful connections in the context of, you know, startups and technical when you\u2019re not living in a tech hub like SF? If it\u2019s possible, do you have any advice on how to do that because you\u2019ve been in both worlds before?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, totally. So San Francisco, New York, etc., definitely have their pluses. You know, I was able to meet some incredible people when I lived in those places, right? Like I got onto Jason Calacanis\u2019 \u201cThis Week in Startups\u201d because I was there in San Francisco.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0And this was years ago but, you know, made connections with his best friend, Brian. Brian and I met up for like, for lunch, or coffee, or something like that. We met up for drinks, actually, in my own neighborhood in San Francisco and then he\u2019s the one that got me onto \u201cThis Week in Startups,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So like, that would not have been possible if I was not in San Francisco. It is harder to do that sort of stuff if you\u2019re not somewhere else. It is very possible to be building those relationships via the internet, right, via Twitter, that sort of thing. Eventually, taking those conversations to direct message, to e-mail, you know, that sort of stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also tell people and I try to do this as well is you also need to be in person around people also. So, like, I live in Denver. It is a two and a half hour flight to San Francisco. It is a three and a half hour flight to New York, right? There\u2019s no reason why I shouldn\u2019t be in each of those cities, you know, every like three to six months, something like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So yeah, I think that\u2019s also something to remember is that, you know, you can build these relationships, you can have conversations, you can e-mail, like that sort of stuff, but there really is no substitute for the in-person time. So go into conferences. You know, go into whatever it is, you know, where the people are that you wanna connect with.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So for me, it\u2019s, you know, I go to some, like, mastermind stuff. I go to a small conference in Cabo every year, you know, and then I go to New York and I co-work with people. And I set up meetings with people that I know in New York City. You know, I\u2019m like, \u201cHey, I\u2019m gonna be in New York for four days.\u201d And I just slam those days full of meetings and coffees and all that stuff. When I\u2019m in San Francisco, I\u2019m running around the city. I\u2019m meeting with people. So really taking advantage of those times.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, I\u2019ll be honest, it is harder to build those relationships, not in New York, San Francisco, London, etc. But it is possible to build a bit of those relationships, to build it online, you know, in platforms like Indie Hackers, etc., have, you know, now facilitate that a lot better. But also like, don\u2019t count out the in-person stuff. It\u2019s still really important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think a lot of people saying that when you are a remote startup founder and you kind of ignore this huge advantage of having been able to sit with your clients on the same room even from time to time, and for like once or twice a year, especially when you are on a stage or if your product is really sales heavy and the price sales and whatnot, I think people just, \u201cOh, remote, I work remote. I should not meet with people again forever and ever.\u201d So I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a great attitude to have. John, I\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0And it\u2019s not reality honestly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, you can go to Bali or wherever, you know, for a while and, you know, work from the beach. Like I\u2019ve worked from, I think it\u2019s 12 different countries in the last four years, you know, and then yeah, you know, travel a bit. You know, I\u2019ll work from different states where I am, you know, where I am with my wife and whatever. But, you know, you do still need that in-person time and it\u2019s not, you know, the bill of goods at these different sites and, you know, Instagram tries to sell you just like working on your laptop on the beach. Like, that\u2019s not really reality, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0[inaudible 00:38:46] for a week.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, exactly I mean, you know, it might be for a week. I\u2019ve worked from the beach in Mexico, right? Like that\u2019s, yeah, totally. I\u2019ve done that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But also like, it\u2019s not fun to be sitting by the pool looking at the ocean and on your laptop. Like that sucks. Like do your work and then go out by the pool, right?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Like\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026come on. It\u2019s not healthy to have your laptop by the pool. That\u2019s ridiculous. I\u2019ve done it but, like, it\u2019s not fun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, awesome. John, I really wanted to continue talking to you but I know that your time is running out. So, it\u2019s been a fantastic chat. Thank you for your time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0For sure. Thank you for having me on, man.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Awesome. So, John, how can listeners find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so two places to find me online. Well, I\u2019m @dohertyjf everywhere. D-O-H-E-R-T-Y J-F. So Twitter and Instagram are the best two kind of social-wise and then my company is Credo. It\u2019s getcredo.com.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. So, yeah, for everyone out there, don\u2019t forget to check out John, his writings and, of course, if you need some marketing help, check out Credo at getcredo.com. Again, John, thanks a lot for your time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong>\u00a0My pleasure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s it for another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley\u201d brought to you by Arc. We created this podcast with the hope that in each episode, you can learn something new from other remote startup people. So if you have any feedback or suggestions, please don\u2019t hesitate to reach out to me at Jovian@arc.dev. Or you can find us on Twitter @arcdotdev. See you next week with another episode of \u201cOutside the Valley\u201d and ciao.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>John Doherty, CEO and Founder of Credo, shares how remote entrepreneurs and consultants can manage expectations better.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":603,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-602","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-thought-leadership"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.6 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Communicating Expectations Well: John Doherty of Credo<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"John Doherty, CEO and Founder of Credo, shares how remote entrepreneurs and consultants can manage expectations better.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/communicating-expectations-john-doherty\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" 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