{"id":548,"date":"2020-01-21T17:40:00","date_gmt":"2020-01-21T15:40:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=548"},"modified":"2025-11-03T13:00:49","modified_gmt":"2025-11-03T05:00:49","slug":"build-company-doesnt-need-you-laura-roeder","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/build-company-doesnt-need-you-laura-roeder\/","title":{"rendered":"Build a Company That Doesn&#8217;t Need You: Laura Roeder of MeetEdgar"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p><em>I\u2019m definitely a believer in praise in public, criticize in private. So I try to do a lot of public praise on Slack, where everyone can see it. But yeah, if I\u2019m giving someone critical feedback, it really always needs to be a video call. If I can\u2019t do a one-on-one meeting with them.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we have Laura Roeder, CEO and founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/meetedgar.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">MeetEdgar<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/paperbell.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Paperbell<\/a>\u00a0Coaching Software!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode we covered how Laura built a company that can run without her, why MeetEdgar has a \u201cCEO\u201d\u00a0<em>and<\/em>\u00a0a \u201cPresident,\u201d and the importance of transparency in company culture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also talked about why MeetEdgar doesn\u2019t believe in deadlines, why they use the title \u201cadvocates\u201d instead of \u201cmanagers,\u201d and how you can give better criticism and feedback in a remote team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Laura also has a special gift for Outside The Valley listeners! Get one free month of MeetEdgar with the coupon code\u00a0<code>PODCAST<\/code>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favourite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL291dHNpZGUtdGhlLXZhbGxleQ%3D%3D&hl=en-TW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Laura\u2019s current role and why MeetEdgar has a \u201cPresident\u201d<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why Laura decided to create a company that can run without her<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Mistakes and challenges Laura made while growing MeetEdgar<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The importance of transparency<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why you should not put criticism on Slack<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why meetings are essential for remote teams<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Is MeetEdgar small by design?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>How MeetEdgar thinks about documentation<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why MeetEdgar doesn\u2019t have \u201cmanagers\u201d but \u201cadvocates\u201d<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why Laura doesn\u2019t believe in deadlines<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/lkr\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Laura\u2019s Twitter<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/lauraroeder.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Laura\u2019s blog<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/meetedgar.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">MeetEdgar<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/meetedgar.com\/the-not-so-secret-secret-coupon-page\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">One free month of MeetEdgar<\/a>\u00a0(Coupon code:\u00a0<code>PODCAST<\/code>)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/remote-executive-liam-martin\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Liam Martin of Time Doctor: How to be a \u201cRemote Executive\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/itsmesarahp\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">MeetEdgar President Sarah Park<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep4-yacchat-justin-mitchell-7us7vvuo1a\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Justin Mitchell of YAC Chat: Remote Team \u201cHigh-Res\u201d Communications<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2019\/12\/5\/20995453\/away-luggage-ceo-steph-korey-toxic-work-environment-travel-inclusion\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">\u201cAway\u201d controversy<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep3-toggl-krister-haav-7t1m8gx48p\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Krister Haav of Toggl: Creating a Playful Culture in Remote Teams<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/dhh\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">David Heinemeier Hansson<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/dteare\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dave Teare<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/rework.fm\/venture-capital-and-control-with-david-teare\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">REWORK Podcast: Venture Capital and Control with Dave Teare<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/basecamp.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Basecamp<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/tettra.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tettra<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Holacracy\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Holacracy<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trello.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Trello<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/asana.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Asana<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/app.tettra.co\/teams\/roederstudios\/pages\/the-meetedgar-company-handbook\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The MeetEdgar Company Handbook<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Welcome to another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d the podcast where we interview remote startup leaders, remote work advocates, and founders of distributed teams who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. They share insight on what works and what doesn\u2019t, so you can learn to do it right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This podcast is brought to you by Arc remote hiring platform that helps you hire remote software engineers and teams easily.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m your host, Jovian Gautama. Today we have Laura Roeder CEO and founder of Meet Edgar. In this episode, we covered how Laura build a company that can run without her. Why MeetEdgar has both a CEO and a president and the importance of transparency in company culture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also talked about why MeetEdgar doesn\u2019t believe in deadlines, which is kind of special. Why the subtitle advocates instead of managers, and how you can give better criticism and feedback in a remote remote team. Laura also has a special gift for \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d listeners. You can get one free month of MeetEdgar with the coupon code, podcast, all caps.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you just go to MeetEdgar and input the coupon code podcast P-O-D-C-A-S-T, I guess you probably already know how to spell that because you\u2019re listening to podcast now. Okay, so and if you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please do consider leaving a review on iTunes because that\u2019ll help other people like you to discover the podcast. So without further ado, here we go. Laura Roeder. Hey, Laura, welcome to the show.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you Jovian. I\u2019m excited to be here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, Laura. It\u2019s really a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I\u2019ve been following your writings and your interviews for a while now. Like I mentioned before the call I was slightly nervous to talk to you today. But yeah, I\u2019m more than excited to learn more from you and about MeetEdgar. Just to kick things off. Just to introduce to people who are not that familiar yet with MeetEdgar and with you. Can you share a bit more about your background and the company itself?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so MeetEdgar is a social media marketing automation tool. So we\u2019re a tool for publishing your content to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, all the different social networks. I\u2019m sure we have a lot of developers listening. Developers often really like us, because we really automated a lot of the tasks for social media marketing and developers are not scared of automation. They love it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Totally, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so basically, we save you a lot of time compared to other social tools. And my background, I\u2019ve been an entrepreneur for I guess about like 12 years. So my whole career I\u2019ve been working for myself and various businesses. I\u2019ve really always been in the social media marketing and online marketing space, either doing consulting and then E courses and then software as I do today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. When I reached out to you, so I realized that you\u2019re currently not active with the day-to-day of the company and you have a president that do this. Can you share a bit more about the decision itself why you do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So it\u2019s a path that I\u2019ve been on, really since we launched. So, something really unusual about the launch. When we launched Edgar in 2014, I was pregnant with my first child. So I knew that I\u2019d be taking parental leave within the first year of our startup, right? I took three months off, and that was six months after launch. So it was unusual, but it was a really actually a great constraint because I had to build a company that would be fine with me being away for three months, right, in the first year. You know which a lot you know, I would say most founders probably have never been away from their business for three months, much less.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0In the very first year. So you know, I knew that I wanted to be able to take that time off. I\u2019ve never been a you know, super hardcore hustle work all the time type of entrepreneur anyway, you know, I\u2019m a big believer that you should build a business that you love and that supports your life. So I knew that I wanted to build something that I could, you know, take periods of time away from, where I could travel, or spend time with my family, and eventually work myself out of entirely. So at about the four to five year mark, I promoted the person who had been our head of operations to a president role. So I still obviously, do promotional stuff like this. I\u2019m still, you know, hanging out on our Slack and I still have calls with that the president but I don\u2019t have any other like direct reports or like, you know, execution work that I do in the company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So this is what I found really fascinating, just like you mentioned, because since you built MeetEdgar since day one, you are on the mindset that you wanna build a company that won\u2019t be dependent on you on the long run. Because a while ago I talked to Liam Martin the founder of a startup called Time Doctor and he\u2019s also the organizer of Running Remote which he was a podcast interviewee.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>All right, so we\u2019re talking about the evolution from the so called entrepreneur to executive like basically there\u2019s a lot of entrepreneurs that just cannot let go of doing day-to- day. So if they\u2019re under your position like that you know, \u201cCan I help you with something I\u2019m not doing anything right now?\u201d And they just can\u2019t let go but I just totally find it fascinating because like you mentioned you strive for build a company like, \u201cOkay, how can this company run without me.\u201d And then like you mentioned you want to have like a great work life balance or something like. So I totally found this fascinating. So just curious about the current\u2026actually let me take a step back. How big is MeetEdgar now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re about 15 people now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a015 people and all hundred percent distribute.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, but all in the U.S. Yes, except for me. I\u2019m actually in the UK. But the rest of the team is in the U.S. so, we\u2019ve always had a U.S. based team so that we can all work in the same time zones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Got it. Yeah, I love to jump to that, like the whole team a bit later. So on the transition from you you know, kind of like, facing out a bit from the company and delegate to the current president. Can you share a bit about how was it? Like, was there any kind of like worry or any kind of how do I say? Uncertainty out there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So I did it a year before I planned on doing it. So you know, she and I had been talking about it, how this was a role that she\u2019d like to move to at some point, and I had sort of told myself\u2026I remember I told myself, okay, in September 2019, that\u2019s when she\u2019ll start. And I was thinking that kind of a year before and like, September 2018, I\u2019m like, then, you know,\u201d I\u2019ll have a year to kind of train her and we\u2019ll get her ready for that role.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I kind of realized, I wish I could remember what I read, but it\u2019s so cheesy, but I swear I read some like inspirational quote on Instagram. I was like on Instagram and someone\u2019s like, \u201cWhy do it tomorrow when you can do it today?\u201d Right? It was just some like, really generic cheesy quote. But you know, sometimes something just like strikes you the right way. And I was like, \u201cYeah, if this is something I know that I want,\u201d right? I want to put her in this role and take myself out of this role. Why am I waiting a year?\u201d Because it\u2019s not like, I\u2019m gonna disappear as soon as she starts. So whatever kind of like training I imagined I need to do, which of course was very vague. If you\u2019d ask me like, \u201cWhat\u2019s that training?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. We just meet and talk.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And like she\u2019s been with the company since day one. Like I\u2019ve worked with her really closely since we launched so it\u2019s not like she doesn\u2019t, you know, know what\u2019s going on. She had always been in charge while I was on leave, right? Like she was plenty prepared.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I just realized, like, \u201cWell, whatever this vague idea of training that I have, I mean wouldn\u2019t it even be more effective once she\u2019s in the role? \u201cBecause then it\u2019s not theoretical anyway, then she\u2019s coming to me being like, \u201cWhat do I do about this?\u201d So I was like, \u201cHere\u2019s what I would do.\u201d Instead of like, maybe someday you\u2019ll find yourself in this situation, you know? So, yeah, so I just talked to her that day, and I\u2019m just like, it\u2019s time, it\u2019s time.. Now let\u2019s, let\u2019s just do it. So, you know, I think it just shows that you never feel totally prepared and totally ready. You just have to make that call and go for it and see what happens.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So when you decided that one day you\u2019ll be transitioning to be less hands on as the process goes did you share this gradually to the whole team?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it was always kind of the role that I had with the team. Like I said, I was never that founder that was like first in last out like, I worked after the first leave. I was just working part-time, so people were always used to me. And I\u2019m not a micromanager. They weren\u2019t like, \u201cOh, Laura\u2019s just like double checking everybody\u2019s work with everything.\u201d People were used to me having kind of that distance. So it was a very natural progression.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it amazing. Just curious, like, this is a very trivial question, but how did you guys decide on the name of the title of president?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s kind of funny, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So really, it\u2019s just I mean, you know, it\u2019s sort of arbitrary, but we don\u2019t have any \u201cC suite,\u201d titles at our company. And like we also don\u2019t use VP titles. So it\u2019s like okay, I don\u2019t think like CEO is quite right. And she\u2019s also not some people use like general manager, but it just sounds like I don\u2019t know, it sounds very retail to me, a general manager. So yeah, so we just decided on president because it sounds like, I wanted it to be clear that she\u2019s the leader of the company. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m the leader and she operator like she\u2019s the leader. So, yeah, we just chose president, but it\u2019s definitely kind of arbitrary.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So I noticed a while a go, did you realize that in a lot of bigger startup, there\u2019s a lot of vice president, but there are no presidents?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, like, who\u2019s the president? [crosstalk 00:11:16].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Who\u2019s the president? Like, there\u2019s only Joe Biden there, but there\u2019s no Obama like, that\u2019s kind of weird. All right, so now currently, you are more like, hands off with the company. You also like this year, you opened a strategic coaching consultation. And why did you decide to do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, so there were two reasons. One is that I had time. Like, seriously, I was just like, what do I do with myself? I mean, you kind of mentioned that a lot of people have this time, so they started like digging in and micromanaging the business. So I think it\u2019s true that you have to give yourself something else to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, yeah. I mean, I love talking to entrepreneurs. I was also interested in researching the coaching and consulting industry, I\u2019m actually probably gonna release software in that space at some point in the future. We\u2019ll keep it very vague for now. So, you know, the best way to get to know an industry is to really dive into it. So that\u2019s what I\u2019ve done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. That\u2019s interesting. So, yeah, this has become like teaser trailer for now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool, so you know, MeetEdgar\u2026sorry, can you remind me again, when did MeetEdgar start 2015?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a02014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a02014 right. So it\u2019s been like, you know, four or around five years now. So what were some of the challenges, mistakes you\u2019ve made or lessons you\u2019ve learned as a leader, you know, while running MeetEdgar especially when it comes to your team management or anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, we\u2019ve had a lot of ups and downs at Edgar I mean, we\u2019ve had to do layoffs, which is the worst. We had to do layoffs, because we had a huge drop in our revenue and lost a lot of customers after there were some changes to Twitter in particular and also losing access to Facebook groups for a while. So I mean, we\u2019ve been through ups and downs for sure. You know, it\u2019s been like a lot, a lot has happened over the five years, and I mean, one of the biggest lessons has been the value of transparency, of really sharing everything with your team. We\u2019ve always been a very transparent company, we share all of our financials, aside from individual salaries, you can see like, honestly, you can kind of ballpark it because if you really wanna dig, you can kind of find like this is a development team salary and you know how many people are there right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0And we actually we do like, we like people to have some sort of ballpark of how much different roles are paid. Because my point of view is like, you never wanna be shocked. I don\u2019t want someone who is in a customer service role to be shocked that a developer makes more than them. A developer does make more than them, that shouldn\u2019t be a secret, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>So we\u2019re very transparent with our financials. And that was a really fascinating thing. When it came to the layoff. So people had seen that, you know, our expenses had become too high for our revenue. So when we did lay people off, a lot of the people that were affected, it was definitely negative for them, but they were like, \u201cYou know, I\u2019ve been looking for another job because I saw that the finances weren\u2019t going well.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, which is funny, but it\u2019s like, that\u2019s actually great as the founder, right? That\u2019s kind of what you want is for it to be the least crushing blow possible for them. Because it\u2019s like, yeah, people are smart, you know, people see if things aren\u2019t going well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that was such a huge lesson to me of like, just sort of the unexpected way is that it pays off. And we\u2019re just it\u2019s really important to us to share all information.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You know, anyone can sit in on any meeting, anyone can see any document like stuff is not siloed to different people or to different departments, because people can just make much better decisions when they understand everything that\u2019s going on across the company.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. During the layoff, like, you mentioned that because of transparency, was there like a feeling that actually the people who was unfortunate at that time was kind of like still rooting for MeetEdgar, right? Because of the transparency that you gained along the way? Like, \u201cI know, this is something you have to do, but I\u2019m still rooting for you. I\u2019ll just go find another job as you contact.\u201d Was it that kind of feeling?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0It really, yeah, I mean, I got positive emails from I think every single person that was affected because we also gave sufferance. We gave two months severance which, you know, in America, you\u2019re not required to give anything, two months is kind of considered a pretty good amount. So people really appreciated that we did that, that we made the decision early enough to be able to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, yeah, I mean, I\u2019m pretty happy to say that I\u2019ve really maintained\u2026there\u2019s also been people that I\u2019ve let go over the years that I\u2019ve also maintained a really positive relationships with because that too, that should never be a surprise, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>If you\u2019re fired from your job, it should not be a shocker that day, there should be lots of conversations leading up to it where you know, that it\u2019s not a match. So that\u2019s been the case.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, totally. So right. Just before the call I mentioned to you that I kind of scroll up on to your Twitter feed. So that\u2019s how I do research by the way. So there is this, you mentioned about, you know, not delivering criticism on Slack, which I totally understand. Because I think there are times where my manager or my boss kind of like, say this on Slack, but in text it sounds like severe. Sounds really bad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0But when you talk it out, it\u2019s actually not that bad. So, I\u2019m just curious, it\u2019s kind of like this curiousity about your one-on-ones with your team members, like delivering,you know, delivering criticism or praise, and while that\u2019s so. Can you share a bit more how do you do one-on-one with your direct reports?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So, yeah,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I\u2019m definitely a believer in praise in public, criticize in private. So I try to do a lot of public praise on Slack, where everyone can see it. But yeah, if I\u2019m giving someone critical feedback, it really always needs to be a video call. If I can\u2019t do a one-on-one meeting with them.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I will literally just record a little video of myself talking and email it to them because like you said, the context is so important if you write in text like, \u201cHey, I found these mistakes, on your report.\u201d That sentence alone and text people can spin all sorts of stories about what it means and, \u201cAre they saying I shouldn\u2019t do these reports anymore? And they\u2019re taking this away from my place? Are they gonna fire me now?\u201d Or like, just saying it in a video being like, \u201cOh, hey, I found these three mistakes. So go ahead and, you know, fix them. Let me know when you\u2019ve done that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s just such like a different experience. So yeah, I really try not to hold back on criticism, which is something that I\u2019ve had to work on. You know, it can be uncomfortable giving people critical feedback, but it\u2019s really important. I just try to think, okay, if I find myself thinking something in my head, I need to share it with them. I mean, unless I\u2019m just venting, right which we all have like bad day where we\u2019re like, \u201cJovian, what? That guy\u2019s the worst.\u201d You know you shouldn\u2019t share that but if you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, like Jovian made this video and I wish he had like made it faster, he takes too long to get to the point.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If I\u2019m watching the video thinking that like I should share that with you because I have something useful for you and useful for the whole company to make our work better. So I am, you know, direct with people I do share critical feedback in a kind way not in an aggressive way but with the idea that we\u2019re all like, you know we\u2019re all working together doing our best so we all want to improve what that is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I do find that interesting, like, you mentioned like the contact or the media where you transfer the feedback is super important, especially when you are the CEO. Because in any way your voice will be the loudest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, I tend to think about the negative part. And probably if you Slack me like, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s it. I\u2019m going to fire you.\u201d Like, probably reply with like, \u201cOkay, when\u2019s my last day? When\u2019s my last I\u2019m turning back my company laptop?\u201d So yeah, it\u2019s certainly important. I think this all something so I talked to a startup founder named Justin Mitchell. He worked for not he worked for\u2026not he worked, he founded a startup called YAC Chat. It\u2019s basically you can send voice message via on Slack and on the app itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What I find interesting is basically like when you talk it out, when you talk something out, it\u2019s either you getting stuff like you\u2019re more aware of what you wanna convey, and you kind of soften your tone and whatnot. And, or when you even though when you\u2019re trying to convey an idea, you want to talk something but when you talk it out, you\u2019re probably in the middle, and it\u2019s actually not that important. And then you save time instead of like, back and forth via Slack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So yeah, I just found that interesting. So I\u2019ve been doing this research for this podcast, I\u2019ve something that you repeat it when it comes to remote team management is that you\u2019re missing this, \u201cOver hurt moments.\u201d Like you cannot see if you are in marketing team you cannot actually hear the sales calls that the sales teams are making, and your product team you cannot hear what the marketing is planning about. And I totally can relate to that because I only transition to working remotely in this past six months. And then I do like miss it like sometimes, I kind of like out of the loop of what happens. So you mentioned that the way to avoid this is being as public as possible on Slack. I would love for you to expand on this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And will love to it any other else that you can replicate this thing that can spark creativity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so I mean, one thing that we do is have a lot of meetings. I think it\u2019s very popular right now to be like, \u201cOh, like meetings. Yuck.\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Meeting are so bad yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Meetings are bad. Meetings are so uncool, but especially being remote, you know, having a company wide meeting every week where everyone\u2019s there on video, discussing what\u2019s going on with the entire company, I think is really important for keeping people on the same page. Because, like, you really have to put it in front of people. Like if you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, well, you know what, our marketing agendas are public, and anyone could go look at them.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, yeah,\u201d but like what developer has plenty to do, they\u2019re not gonna spend their time like going to look at the agenda for a marketing meeting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, I do think it\u2019s important that all that stuff is available and easily accessible, which it is, but it\u2019s just like, you know, how many people are actually gonna do that? Whereas if it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, we have a company wide meeting, everyone\u2019s sitting there.\u201d You can be thinking about someone else, something else, but hopefully at least part of your brain is a little engaged, and hearing the update from ops and marketing and development, you know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>So I think a lot of meetings are important. We also really try to limit private messages.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So this one is interesting, because there\u2019s just been, as we\u2019re recording this, this big controversy from the company Away, where they had the same rule about no private messages and things did not go well for them, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0And this role was sort of blamed for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m just grabbing my popcorn, like just saying on Twitter, \u201cOh, this is what happens,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So, you know, we try to limit private messages as much as possible, because of course, if something isn\u2019t a direct message, nobody else can see it. And we\u2019ve found that this actually is a little challenging for people because people often feel like, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t wanna like clog up Slack with my little side conversation,\u201d you know, if they\u2019re having a specific conversation, asking someone like, \u201cOh, where can I find this file? It\u2019s not in Google Docs is it somewhere else?\u201d But little things like that. If you put them in a slack channel, you can search for them later or other people can see like, \u201cOh, I thought we didn\u2019t have that file anymore. But now she\u2019s talking about it. Do we still use that?\u201d Like, there\u2019s just a lot of little connections that happen when people can see everything. So I think that no private messages role is a really good rule.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think people kind of like, underestimate this subconscious creativity that comes. So that\u2019s why if you\u2019re in the office, like you say over here, like the vibe, and I think you kind of get replicated by being public, as public as possible on Slack message. Cool. And just curious, like, what are some special or fun things that you guys do at MeetEdgar to keep the culture great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So you know, it\u2019s always challenging being remote. You\u2019re always trying to find little ways that you can connect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>One that we\u2019ve done that\u2019s fun is watching a movie together. So like all watching the same movie at the same time, and then doing like a little group chat about about the movie.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of this stuff honestly feels really cheesy. But you know, it\u2019s just kind of what you have to do in a remote company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So a movie, anything else? Or just like small stuff?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I mean, we do arrange group chats for people to have just like video chats with like two to four people. Which again, it feels really awkward at first, like for the first like a minute or two you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, what are we supposed to chat about?\u201d But we find that it gets not awkward right away. And I think that\u2019s really important because one of the weird things about being remote you know, our company is really small, right? We\u2019re about 15 people. If we were together in an office, everyone would have had lunch and coffee and everything with everyone else because it\u2019s only 15 people. Like that\u2019s a very small group, [crosstalk 00:26:11.25]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0But the problem is being remote, there are some people whose jobs just don\u2019t interact. Like if you\u2019re a back end developer, you don\u2019t really need to talk to the person that writes our blog, like you guys just don\u2019t have usually any work that overlaps or like, you maybe don\u2019t need to talk to our finance person, you know. So, it\u2019s really important that you\u2019re creating these opportunities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And of course, we do have in person meetups, but you can\u2019t you can\u2019t just rely on that. So these casual chats, and movies, and stuff like that is just a way to make sure that the finance person and the designer are getting a chance to get to know each other because they might not get that chance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm, that is interesting. So what we do at Arc is basically we\u2019re like around 30 people now. So what we do we\u2026so we are like a hybrid team, like a lot of us are co-located in Taipei, Taiwan, but some are distributed in North America. So what we usually do is we celebrate birthdays.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So let\u2019s say if you are a June baby and after your birthday we celebrate by the May baby. People who were born in May are responsible to help you just do like some real small thing. So when we are celebrating the birthday of people who are remote we are basically just using you know Zoom or using just discreet like some bad like Jeopardy quiz like online where people can participate on Slack. Like, okay, like for example, \u201cWho wants to be a millionaire?\u201d Okay, ask the audience and then ask the audience, and people just put their emojis on Slack and these are the answer. So yeah, just small things like that. But you mentioned you have an in-person meetups though. Is it like a whole team retreat?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, whole team retreat. We\u2019ve done sometimes once a year, sometimes twice a year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Oh, were you like pretty hands on and like, not managing, like, arranging the trip? Or?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0No, that is not my skillset, I don\u2019t help at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I\u2019m just mentioning because this is something that remote companies are trying to dive into more, you know, because they feel like in- person meetups are super important. Some of the most creative initiative from the companies. So for example I talked to the CEO of Toggl, Krister Haav, they have this really cool unicorn startup simulator. And it\u2019s super fun game, and games that win during the in-person meetup brainstorm. I think people will try and emulate that more. And, you know, also there are some great projects specially, like, just came up for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you know, something that we found is important for in-person is not to be over scheduled. Because I think when you first do them, you\u2019re like, here\u2019s the breakfast and then here\u2019s the work day and then here\u2019s the activity, and then here\u2019s the meeting, and then here\u2019s drinks and here\u2019s dinner, you know. And like, these are all people that choose to work alone from home. You know, like, not everybody wants to spend all day together, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So now like, we have time, every day, we have at least like two or three hours, kind of in between, like, the workday and dinner. We just don\u2019t have anything scheduled because the people who are really social and wanna hang out, like they\u2019ll make it happen anyway. You know, someone will be like, \u201cI\u2019m going here, if anybody you know, wants to come with,\u201d and then people can. But like, you know, we\u2019re a software company, right? We\u2019re talking about a bunch of developers who work remotely, like often not people who wanna be social all day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I like where you mentioned that these are the people who choose to not meet people in real life. Like that\u2019s why they are working remotely, like they hate people. No, just kidding. But yes, but I just find it hilarious, but I did receive some degree of truth in it. I forgot which company they\u2019re basically again, like on their meetups, they have like this free time. They even get their budget allocated.They even get their budget, like they give you like a couple hundred bucks do what you want to do in this beach, just don\u2019t drown or something like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Just don\u2019t drown yeah. And we\u2019re also really clear that the social stuff like, you know, because we have generous and social stuff in the evening, we\u2019re very clear that there\u2019s no pressure to go to that. I mean, people obviously, do go most days. But like, if you just feel like being by yourself one evening, you don\u2019t have to make up some elaborate excuse, you can just not go and no one\u2019s gonna give you a hard time and it\u2019s totally okay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so, I\u2019ve interviewed a couple of remote startup leaders from a startup company. So one of the topic that always came when it comes to you know, employee management or, team management is the onboarding for new employees. Can you share a bit more what the onboarding looks like for new hires in MeetEdgar?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so I think something funny about being remote is the first question we always have to address is, \u201cHow do I show up on the first day?\u201d If you\u2019re in an in-person office, you know how to show up, you walk into the office at 9:00. But when your remote people are like, \u201cDo I send an email to someone and say, I\u2019m working now? Like what do I do?\u201d So, at our company, you know that you\u2019re working, if you\u2019re on Slack, if you\u2019re signed on to Slack, that means you\u2019re working. If you\u2019re not signed on to Slack, that means that you\u2019re not working. So you know, we tell people that we give people a first friend, and your first friend is someone who, you can ask any questions. So that if you\u2019re not sure who to ask, you know, who your first friend is, and you can say, where do these documents live? Or how do we do this? How do we do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>We try to give people a really thorough tour of all the departments and not just their department. So they\u2019re understanding you know, kind of what is like our basic marketing strategy. What does our development process look like? Like how do we handle finances at our company because we are a small company. So, you can kind of get to know everyone and get to understand everything.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And we give people a lot of time, like the first week, we assume that you\u2019re just gonna be like chatting to people, poking around, you know, reading through documents, reading through meeting notes, we don\u2019t start off with like, here\u2019s your project on the first day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0You mentioned about like giving, \u201ctours,\u201d like for the new hires.. So what does this to entail? Is basically just like let\u2019s say this elite developer that you just go like one-on-one call with you and present you with like 30 minutes, something like that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so yeah, a lot of it is one-on-one calls with people from all over the company and they might kind of show you things that you can explore more on your own. So yeah, you might have a call with someone from our customer service department, and they\u2019re like, \u201cHere\u2019s where our help docs live. Here\u2019s how we kind of think about constructing them. Here\u2019s like the resources that we use when we make them, you know, you can read through them or later. Here\u2019s like, the top questions that our customers have. Here\u2019s the pages that get the most views.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, so yeah, MeetEdgar is a very small company. So again, when I was doing research, I was like, kind of I guess probably I\u2019ll guess you\u2019ll have like, 25, 30 people at least. And I realized we\u2019re like, 15, and I was kind of surprised, but actually not that surprised, because I also been following your writings and whatnot. So this small team, is it like by design? Like, is this something that you want to cap on?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I mean, like I said, we have been larger before. And I think a lot of companies go through this experience where maybe they at first are sort of excited about growing and then maybe something happens where they get smaller or and then they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, wait, I thought I wanted to be bigger. But I wanna be smaller.\u201d Small and small is really great. And I think the interesting thing about being small is like, it\u2019s such a balance, right? Because of course, there\u2019s only so many things that you can achieve as a 15 person team, right? It\u2019s just it\u2019s a limited resource that you cannot do all the things at once.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0But almost everyone prefers smaller teams, like it\u2019s very unusual to meet someone that\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019d rather be on an 80 person team than a 10 person team. Most humans enjoy how smaller teams operate. So we\u2019re definitely a company that wants to remain very small. We are happy growing a bit slower and having a smaller team or we\u2019re happy never being you know, a $500 million company, that\u2019s not really the path that we\u2019re on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so I think you nailed it on the head. Like I think lots of entrepreneurs like being in a small company, but most of them don\u2019t want to admit it. Because they feel like, \u201cOh, everything is about scaling.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I listened to this ReWork podcast with on Basecamp, David Heinemeier Hanson, the CTO of Basecamp was talking to the CEO\u2026oh, not CEO the founder of the 1Password David Teare. So they were talking about DHH, which is David Heinemeier Hanson, talked about stories like he heard a lot of stories about startup founders that just don\u2019t feel like they don\u2019t love their company\u2019s number just because it\u2019s grown too big and they prefer when it was smaller, they don\u2019t find the joy in it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So again, yes, I totally agree. I feel like most people especially okay, one of the things that comes to mind, especially when you\u2019re building a remote company, when you grow bigger, it\u2019s like you have a 100 people. It\u2019s really harder to scale again with the process and documentation and whatnot. So the so-called like communication that will just or the process that will just stack up. Is there any particular thing that you think MeetEdgar does really well or emphasized more compared to other companies when it comes to culture or something that you personally really quite proud of.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Our working hours.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>It\u2019s sad that this is a point of differentiation, but we work 40 hour work weeks, every week. There\u2019s no exceptions to that. There\u2019s no crunch time.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And you know, our team has four weeks vacation, which again in America is considered a lot. And we don\u2019t work on the evenings or the weekends. So that means that you will get no emails, there will be no Slack messages. It\u2019s just not what we do. And I think it\u2019s really important to be able to give people a job that they can really enjoy and work really hard during the workday, and then they can unplug and be off.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think, again, I think a lot of remote companies are [inaudible 00:37:28]. Companies like Basecamp, they\u2019re a huge proponent of 40 hours work week. I think the main difference between MeetEdgar and Basecamp like how they work, they know yeah, they\u2019re are a big proponent of asynchronous work and MeetEdgar is more synchronized, which is totally fine. What works for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And another thing that I want to talk about today is basically the thing that I\u2019m super interested about because I don\u2019t think I\u2019m really good at it is about processes. So how does the MeetEdgar team go about documenting stuff in general? And yeah, I just wanted to start with that first.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0So we use Tetra for our company WIKI. I think they\u2019re a really great product. And we have a company WIKI which I assumed that every company did, but now I\u2019ve come to find out a lot of companies just don\u2019t have like any documentation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s more like they have it, but they\u2019re just too lazy to update it like nobody knows when to update it, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, right. So yeah, we use basically like the company wiki is used for things like processes or like directories or things that don\u2019t get updated very much. And then Google Docs is used for more living documents, or more like, you know, if there\u2019s a series of emails, like the actual copy of the emails will live within Google Docs. So it\u2019s not like an you know, it\u2019s kind of the actual work not like the overview of something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then we use a lot of just like pinning in Slack channels is also just a really good way to organize things. So every department and their Slack channel they have like, usually a little kind of shortlist of what their priorities are and then that might be linked to like a, you know document where it goes more in depth. Or it might just be a little Slack note like, here\u2019s the top three things for us right now, there\u2019s gonna be a link to their meeting agenda notes that everyone can find that easily. If there\u2019s like a big project that they\u2019re working on right now, there\u2019s gonna be a little overview of that pen just so we found that\u2019s a great way to organize information too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So is the team lead, or in your case is called Team Advocates, I think like marketing advocates, are they the one who are somewhat responsible to keep that intact?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, they\u2019re responsible for it. We also have someone on our operations team who is kind of like a helper for the entire team. So she\u2019ll help kind of remind\u2026she\u2019ll kind of look around and be like, \u201cOkay, you don\u2019t have your priorities updated, you know, go ahead and fill that in here.\u201d So she kind of helps remind people to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I think this role is really underrated, especially in remote companies. I think there is someone that has to just go on like,\u201dOkay. Is this updated or not?\u201d Just someone who has this you know, this focus. And why don\u2019t we I just want to look like a little bit. The team leads in MeetEdgar is not called \u201cmanagers\u201d is called \u201cadvocates\u201d, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you share a bit more why advocates?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so we came up with that word because we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, what should we call it?\u201d Because we talked about like we\u2019re not doing VP. We don\u2019t. Yes, VP title, like, manager feels a little old school, to call someone, a manager.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, well, you know, what are they doing?\u201d They\u2019re really advocating for both their team members and they\u2019re advocating for their like department and the company. So if you are the customer experience advocate, it\u2019s just sort of, I think it\u2019s a way to emphasize the idea of, you know, what some people call servant leadership, that the director or the manager is serving their team instead of the team serving the director. So your advocate is advocating for you the members of the customer experience team and is also advocating when we\u2019re talking with the leadership team of the company. And they\u2019re like, \u201cHey, this is why customer experience is important and needs priority and needs, resources and all that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, yeah, that is interesting. Because as you were talking, like, I just realized the name advocate like if someone told me like, you know, like marketing advocate, it\u2019s more like an evangelist or something like this. Like, I\u2019m not managing. I mean, technically, I\u2019m managing someone, but it\u2019s more like, it\u2019s not like I look down at managing, but like, I advocate, I look up to the C suite, for example, that I want to advocate this stuff for my team. And this is the project that I propose, for example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And we wanted to have a word for it because we\u2019re also very clear that we\u2019re not a flat organization. Like it\u2019s not, you know, a few years it\u2019s not so popular anymore. But a few years ago, it was like holocracy is big, right? And being flat is big. And we\u2019ve always been a company that\u2019s like, No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>We\u2019re very organized in exactly what your role is, everyone needs to know who their boss is. Because that\u2019s another thing that especially in remote companies, I guess it\u2019s easy to just sort of leave everything very loose. And we\u2019re really a big fan of clarity and just making things really clear for people.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So if you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, well, you don\u2019t you know, everyone just takes ownership and you don\u2019t really have a boss.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cWell then who determines my salary? Like can someone else fire me?\u201d And it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, actually, you do have a boss we\u2019re just gonna pretend to like no one knows who it is.\u201d You know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Right, so we\u2019re not gonna pretend we\u2019re just gonna tell you like, \u201cThis person is your boss. So know that.\u201d But yeah, they\u2019re also advocating for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, exactly. I think this is a good segway to the next thing I want to talk about is MeetEdgar like you guys have no deadlines.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So we do still largely operate without deadlines. And the reason why, so something to know about our company is we\u2019re totally self serve, we don\u2019t do any custom work. So that also means like, we don\u2019t have a sales team, we don\u2019t have any enterprise clients. We\u2019ve never written a line of code for a specific client, right? So that means that we can be really flexible, like, obviously, we work for our customers, and that we create a product for them. But we never promise any public deadlines for features or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, we have an audience of developers here, I don\u2019t need to explain why, you know, it can be a bad idea to publicly promise a deadline for a software feature. So that means that we found that it\u2019s often more useful to be really specific about the scope of a project rather than the deadline. So if we\u2019re, you know, developing a feature, for example, getting really, really clear before we start on exactly what this means, exactly what it includes, exactly what it doesn\u2019t include.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then of course, we all wanna make sure we\u2019re on the same page as far as like, is this a one hour project? Is this a six month project? Right? I mean, you need to have some idea of how long it\u2019s gonna take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>But the reason that we don\u2019t have deadlines is because we\u2019ve found that you can\u2019t have strict deadlines, and have a no crunch time culture, which is what we have, right? If you have a deadline, you\u2019re gonna have to work overtime sometimes to make the deadline. That\u2019s just how it is.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re like it has to get done by Friday, no matter what. Well, you\u2019re gonna have to work late Friday night sometimes to make that happen. And what we find is like we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, this is what needs to happen.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like we just released our Android app. And you know, we\u2019re a small team, there was only one developer who was working on the Android app. It was just his project. Well, he ended up having a longer vacation scheduled right when the project was supposed to be wrapping up. That\u2019s just sort of how the timing worked out. So it didn\u2019t finish until he got back from vacation. That\u2019s just how it was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And like, it doesn\u2019t really matter. You know, like we hadn\u2019t promised to our clients that it was gonna be live on a certain day. In the grand scheme of things. It really doesn\u2019t matter if the Android app goes live today or two weeks from today. If we had said, No, this is absolutely the deadline, we would have had to say to him, \u201cYou know what, you had this vacation scheduled, but guess what, it ended up falling at the time or the project needs to be done. So you can\u2019t take the vacation.\u201d Like if you wanna have strict deadlines, that\u2019s just what goes with it. So we\u2019re like we\u2019re gonna have a clear project scope and then it\u2019s gonna get done when it gets done\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I do find it interesting because on one hand, I feel like MeetEdgar is actually pretty structured when it comes to remote companies. You know, the, I don\u2019t want to say strict but like consistent working hours. And you know how people should be it\u2019s like, but on the other hand, there\u2019s this none anxiety inducing, like there\u2019s no deadlines, and there\u2019s this level of trust. I trust you guys to do your best work for the company. And when it\u2019s done, it\u2019s done. If it\u2019s not done, I trust you will continue it. This app won\u2019t look like 10 years if it\u2019s not done, like there\u2019s a certain level of trust on it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0And I mean, we would talk about it right? If we\u2019re like, this is taken a month longer than we thought it was, like, \u201cWhat\u2019s happening here?\u201d Like, obviously, those conversations are gonna happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, definitely. I can see like there\u2019s that like passive aggressive, not passive aggressive, of like you know, it\u2019s been like three months and then. But when there\u2019s a new hire, I\u2019m not sure if you hired someone new recently, but there\u2019s new hire, that they\u2019re pretty used to deadlines, right? Have a soft deadline, do they feel anxious or something like that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think so. Because people are always welcome to do it for themselves. And I think that\u2019s something that we\u2019ve discovered is to really let people have their own style of work. And that also means like, I remember for a long time, I was like we all everyone at the company has to use the same project management system. And we can never find something that worked for the marketing team and the development team and it was this stupid like thorn in our side, like, \u201cAre we gonna use Trello or Asana or Pivotal Tracker?\u201d And then we\u2019re like, \u201cYou know what, different departments can use different things, it\u2019s okay.\u201d So if the way that someone works is they\u2019re like, \u201cI love deadlines. I love to have my work mapped out every day that I\u2019m gonna do it.\u201d It\u2019s like cool, go for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, the thing I got the thing that you say it\u2019s basically the bane of my existence. Because like, just a while ago, a lot of the marketing team members like to use , and I was like,\u201dI don\u2019t like Asana.\u201d And here\u2019s me, literally look at me like I\u2019m a pagan or something like that. \u201cWhy don\u2019t you believe in our god Asana?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Like it\u2019s crazy, but yes, I think it all depends, again, back to like, documentation and\u2026By the way, just like mentioned about documentation. How do you avoid over documentation? Or was there even any problem like this before you made that thing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0We haven\u2019t had too much problem with over documentation. I mean, our philosophy is just do it messy and do it. You know, you just need to have things written somewhere like, and this is also something we\u2019ve gone back and forth on over the years. Like, we\u2019ve tried to create these really lovely, you know, project templates. And it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s the template.\u201d And you fill out all these parts where we found that sometimes I guess that can be over documentation and kind of slow you down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whereas if you just have a Google Doc, and you\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s the six things you need to know about this project.\u201d And they\u2019re written in the Google Doc, and the document has a clear name that you can search for, I\u2019m always adding just random words to my Google Doc titles of like things, you know, words that I might look up. It\u2019s like finance, money, operations, financial. Because I\u2019m like which ones of those words will I like type in when I\u2019m looking for this later?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Honestly, as long as you have that we just kind of try to encourage people, it\u2019s better to just put it down somewhere. Don\u2019t wait till you have this, like, beautiful, perfectly organized document.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, yeah. So, Laura, so we\u2019ve been talking about a lot of stuff like transparency, documentation. I just want to end this with a you know that you guys have this handbook like the MeetEdgar handbook that you\u2019ve published for, so other companies can learn from or even copy that. So I thought as you guys made it public in 2017. Can you share a bit more about why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so we found that we were a lot more organized than most other small companies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Like I said, I was surprised that some companies have no documentation or like you said, it\u2019s just a bunch of stuff that\u2019s five years on a date and no one\u2019s ever looked at it. We also have always been really good at clear policies. And I think, you know, what you kind of spoke to earlier is finding this balance of having a lot of like boundaries and a lot of certainty, combined with giving people a lot of responsibility and a lot of freedom. And we\u2019ve found that having clear parameters actually gives people the freedom to not worry about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like one example is I am not a believer in unlimited vacation time, because I think unlimited vacation time means to figure out where the backchannels how much vacation time you\u2019re actually allowed to use, right? There is a norm that the company is okay, with. So just tell people what the norm is right? Or like we found, even for things that seem really silly, like we found it was really stressful for people, they would go to a conference and we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, you know, book a hotel room on your company credit card,\u201d and people would feel really stressed about how much money that should cost. They\u2019re like, \u201cDo I need to scour the city and find the cheapest possible hotel room or is it okay, to stay in the conference hotel room that costs, you know, twice as much as the one down the street like which one is okay?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So giving people these specifics of like, we literally write, here\u2019s how much hotel rooms obviously depends on the city, but like, here\u2019s the range of how much hotel rooms cost per night. Giving people that kind of information is very freeing, and really allows them to focus on their work instead of hotel room stress. So we released the handbook because we found that a lot of companies felt really lost as far as like, what should HR policies be? How do I especially for you know, new entrepreneurs that are hiring their first few people? How do I do time off? How do I do sick time, like, what should the policy be?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we\u2019re like, we\u2019ve found some things that work pretty well for us, and we have them documented. We\u2019ll just put it out there and share it with you. And we\u2019ve had a bunch of emails from founders that are like, \u201cThank you. I just copied exactly what you wrote. I just took your handbook and I made that my handbook.\u201d And obviously it\u2019ll evolve for them over time with their company, but we love when people do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I like the handbook because it\u2019s quite simple compared to other companies. Like, some other company has their handbook which is also great, but MeetEdgar\u2019s version it\u2019s just simple. It\u2019s a one pager right? It\u2019s a one pager almost one pager.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think there\u2019s a little bit more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0A bit more oh, my God sorry. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we try to keep it simple and not like legalise, right? Just giving just giving people the information that they need.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. All right. Awesome. Yeah, so Laura it has been an absolutely, fantastic chat. It\u2019s really fun chat. So where can people find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so you can find MeetEdgar, M-E-E-T-E-D-G-A-R, meetedgar.com Meet Edgar on the social media. We do have a coupon code for podcast listeners it\u2019s PODCAST all caps gets you your first month free in MeetEdgar PODCAST all caps. And I blog at Lauraroeder.com or you can find me on Twitter @LKR.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So for the listeners, you can find all of these in the show notes. And don\u2019t forget to follow Laura and Medium and Twitter and she has this three letter handles so you know that she\u2019s legit. So yeah, Laura, thank you so much again for your time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s it for another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d brought to you by Arc. We created this podcast with the hope that in each episode, you can learn something new from other remote startup people. So if you have any feedback or suggestions, please don\u2019t hesitate to reach out to me at Jovian@arc.dev. It\u2019s J-O-V-I-A-N @ A-R-C. D-E-V. Or you can find us on Twitter @arcdotdev. See you next week with another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d and ciao.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Laura Roeder, CEO of MeetEdgar, shares why she built a company that doesn&#8217;t need her, giving better feedback, and more.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":551,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-548","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-thought-leadership"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.6 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Build a Company That Doesn&#039;t Need You: Laura Roeder of MeetEdgar<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Laura Roeder, CEO of MeetEdgar, shares why she built a company that doesn&#039;t need her, giving better feedback, and more.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/build-company-doesnt-need-you-laura-roeder\/\" \/>\n<meta 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