{"id":402,"date":"2019-10-15T09:37:00","date_gmt":"2019-10-15T06:37:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=402"},"modified":"2025-06-11T12:28:38","modified_gmt":"2025-06-11T04:28:38","slug":"transforming-into-a-remote-startup-leader","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/transforming-into-a-remote-startup-leader\/","title":{"rendered":"Transforming Into a Remote Startup Leader With Ho Yin Cheung of Remo"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I think there\u2019s a lot of ways to do remote work. Every company does a little bit differently, and I think what we believe remote work is, is that remote work needs to have that human element to it.<\/p><cite>Ho Yin Cheung, founder and CEO of\u00a0Remo<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Today I\u2019m joined by Ho Yin Cheung, the founder and CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/remo.co\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remo<\/a>, a tool that helps you organize virtual events and office space, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/riotlysocialmedia.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Riotly Social Media<\/a>, an Instagram social media agency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We discussed the challenges Ho Yin faced when he began transitioning to be a better remote startup leader, how his perceptions about remote hiring have changed from enabling cost-cutting to enlarging the talent pool, and how Remo helps provide the right amount of transparency for remote teams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ho Yin also shared the resources and thought leaders that helped him to be a better remote startup leader. Make sure to check these out in the Learning Resources section below!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since we recorded this episode, Remo organized several virtual webinar events and has even more events coming up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favorite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\/id1481937930?ign-mpt=uo%3D4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL291dHNpZGUtdGhlLXZhbGxleQ%3D%3D&hl=en-TW\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>05:54 \u2014 What fascinates Ho Yin the most about remote work<\/li><li>08:41 \u2014 Challenges and lessons Ho Yin faced while transforming to be a remote startup leader<\/li><li>13:08 \u2014 How Ho Yin\u2019s hiring process changed<\/li><li>19:38 \u2014 Ho Yin\u2019s \u201csuperpower\u201d that helps him manage his remote team better<\/li><li>21:35 \u2014 Why recording is a powerful tool for creating processes in remote teams<\/li><li>24:59 \u2014 Resources that helped Ho Yin to be a better remote leader<\/li><li>26:54 \u2014 What is Remo?<\/li><li>34:21 \u2014 Use cases for Remo<\/li><li>40:58 \u2014 How Ho Yin\u2019s transition to being a remote startup leader affects Remo\u2019s product roadmap<\/li><li>49:11 \u2014 Advice to startups that want to start hiring remote team members<\/li><li>50:45 \u2014 Why it\u2019s important for remote startup CEOs to have a deep bond with early remote team members<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"learning-resources%3A\">Learning resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"https:\/\/docs.google.com\/spreadsheets\/d\/1VBjhbW7LNaWcK52lFhy--AqAlSSGyBhEe5au5Ne3aYU\/edit#gid=1325264289\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remo\u2019s Remote Company Transition Plan<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.workplaceless.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Workplaceless<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/lisettesutherland.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Lisette Sutherland<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.laurelfarrer.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Laurel Farrer<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"https:\/\/remo.co\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remo<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/riotlysocialmedia.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Riotly Social Media<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/zapier.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Zapier<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/automattic.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Automattic<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/runningremote.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Running Remote<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"http:\/\/runningremote.libsyn.com\/ho-yin-cheung-founder-of-remoco\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Running Remote Podcast with Ho Yin Cheung<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep1-taxjar-mark-faggiano-7r9ktngad2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">How TaxJar Creates a Remote Culture by Prioritizing Employee Experience<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.helpscout.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Help Scout<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.loom.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Loom<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep4-yacchat-justin-mitchell-7us7vvuo1a\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Using Voice to Bring \u201cHigh-Resolution Communication\u201d to Remote Teams<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/The_Sims\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The Sims<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theremoteworksummit.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remote Work Summit<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Hello world. Welcome to another episode of Outside the Valley, the podcast where we interview remote startup leaders, remote workers, remote work advocates, and companies who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. This is a podcast where remote companies share what works and what doesn\u2019t, so you can do it right. Outside the Valley is brought to you by Arc, the remote hiring platform that can help you hire remote software engineer and teams easily on demand just like that. I\u2019m your host, Jovian Gautama.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today, I\u2019m joined by Ho Yin Cheung. Ho Yin is based in Hong Kong and he is the founder and CEO of Remo, the tool that helps you organize virtual events and office space. Ho Yin is also the founder and CEO of Riotly Social Media, an Instagram social media agency that helps you manage and increase the exposure and engagement of your Instagram. We discuss the challenges Ho Yin faced when he began transitioning to be a better remote startup leader as his company transitioned to be a remote-first company. We also talk about how his perceptions about remote hiring have changed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the beginning, he started hiring remotely just to cut costs, a very pragmatic reason, but now he realizes that it\u2019s more than that. It\u2019s about enabling yourself to hire different talents from around the world. We also talk about how his tool Remo helps provide the right amount of transparency for remote teams. Ho Yin also generously shared with us the spreadsheet template that he used to track his transition to make Remo a better remote-first company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since we recorded this episode, Remo has organized several virtual webinar events and they have more events coming up, so you can also check it on the show notes or on the Arc blog. Okay, without further adieu, let\u2019s start the episode. Here is Ho Yin Cheung from Remo. Here we go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ho Yin, how\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m doing good. Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Great, awesome, thank you for coming to the show. So just to start everything, can you share a bit more about your own journey and your experience as an entrepreneur?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, sure. I guess this is like a little intro. I started off as an entrepreneur in Hong Kong, did a lot of different things. I had an eCommerce business, did a mobile marketing agency, and then most recently right now it is like a SAS solution for small and medium businesses to grow their Instagram and social media and this company is called Riotly Social Media. And then since the beginning of the year, we\u2019ve been starting to work on our new project which is called Remo, and Remo is essentially a virtual office [inaudible 00:03:12] platform for remote and distributed teams. It\u2019s like an immersive 2D map that allows you to talk and easily communicate with your teammates, trying to solve problems like loneliness, social interaction with others, and so this is the project that I\u2019ve been focused on right now lately.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I find it interesting that you\u2019re building a tool for remote workers and for the remote industries. Can you share a bit more how was the transition like because your previous product Riotly is pretty different from Remo. Can you share a bit more what made you interested in the remote work industry?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I actually had a remote team for quite some time and I actually didn\u2019t know really what remote work was. I hired a team from the Philippines more of as a cost-effective strategy rather than really thinking about it from like, \u201cOh hey, this is really for remote work.\u201d So I had a remote team pretty much like maybe four or five years ago, starting off with a team in the Philippines and then it wasn\u2019t until about two years ago that I started to read more about what remote work was and learning about companies like Zapier and Automatic that I started to realize that remote work was actually a thing. It was actually something that people really were pushed to for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so I went Running Remote, this conference that was for people who are leading remote teams, and that\u2019s when I started to really dive into and really think that, \u201cHey, maybe remote working is something that is a trend that would be a trend for the future.\u201d And it was at that point where I started to think about how I was running my remote team. It wasn\u2019t until probably last year when I was running my remote team and I was scaling it that I started to face a lot of challenges while scaling it. And so, I looked at those challenges and tried to figure out how to resolve them, and that\u2019s how Remo really came about, was really solving a lot of our own challenges.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So how big is your team now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a025.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a025. And how many of them are remote?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now, about 20 of them are remote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. And so five of them are based in Hong Kong?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, cool. So just to backtrack a little bit, so at that time you mentioned you just started to \u2026 There was an increased interest from you about the whole remote work thing, right? What fascinates you the most about remote work at that time when you just started going deep into it. Some people are fascinated by the work-life balance it brings or the flexibility. What about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think for me at the beginning when I first started, I would say it would be split into phases.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The first phase was that it was very cost effective. That was the first reason why I chose it. And then when I learned more about remote working, the second phase was more about, I realized that you can get a really huge talent pool, and in Hong Kong, we don\u2019t have\u2026 We have talent but it\u2019s hard to get and expensive, and so it also was a cost measure, but also that you could get more for the same price. And that was really attractive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So it was talent, and then second really is that I started to realize what big of an impact that remote work had on my employees\u2019 lifestyle and the way how they lived and the fact that they can work at home and take care of their family<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>[\u2026] or take care of a sick family member, which a lot of my employees [inaudible 00:07:31] or take care of their children or maybe their sister\u2019s children or whatever. There\u2019s this element of being able to do more with your life by working remotely and I think that\u2019s something that a lot of people struggle with and I see that as a liberating\u2026 You\u2019re just liberated basically by remote working.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I totally agree with you on that. A lot of startup founders or CEOs, in the beginning, a lot of them they start on the first phase, those pragmatic way of thinking. I hire remotely because it\u2019s cost effective, it\u2019s cheaper and whatnot. But when they go deep into it, it\u2019s absolutely just more than that. It\u2019s not even only talent but it\u2019s also having a more productive team because they\u2019re happier, being able to take care of their family and friends and whatnot. So yeah, I\u2019ve seen a lot of leaders that came from the same position as you. It starts from a practical side of things and then you just realize, \u201cHey, this is more than just that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So another followup question, you mentioned as you were scaling, there was a lot of challenge that you faced. And I guess for yourself and also noticed from your previous podcast interviews, you went through this transition phase to be a better leader for your remote team members so to speak. I would guess that\u2019s a lot of work that you need to do yourself there. What was the transition like and what was the challenges?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. There was definitely a lot of challenges in maturing myself as I tried to mature as a leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I think one of the critical things that I\u2019ve learned most was that you really have to show empathy and you have to assume that the people that you hire, assuming that you hire well, are doing what\u2019s best and not doing what\u2019s worse.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I had a time when somebody wouldn\u2019t\u2026 I had a time when this girl, she wasn\u2019t able to do this task that I did. It was a research task that was quite repetitive and she would just do a really, really bad job. And my first instinct was like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re lazy, you\u2019re not doing your job or whatnot,\u201d and your first instinct is to think the worst of people, and I think that was something where it\u2019s very easy to do that because you\u2019re not in front of them, you don\u2019t know where they are, they don\u2019t communicate. So you just assume the worst because you just can\u2019t see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve basically yelled and been really pissed off at people. There\u2019s this one girl that I yelled so much that I made her cry and she\u2026 I\u2019m definitely not proud of it. I\u2019ve definitely made a number of people very unhappy in a very emotional way, and I slowly realized that that\u2019s actually not really the truth. I might be angry about something and it turns out that she had trouble with\u2026 Or it\u2019s always some other reason. Like she had trouble with her internet connection or she had trouble with doing this or doing that, so it\u2019s a lot of about trying to figure out what are the problems first before assuming the worst in people. But this is assuming that you hired correctly and you have the right processes in place to make sure that they are doing, you can see that they are doing some work and building up that trust initially.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that was one thing that I learned a lot, was you just have to ask questions first, figure out what\u2019s wrong, and then figure out what is an excuse and what is an actual real reason and whether they\u2019re repeatedly not able to do the tasks that was assigned to them. And if they\u2019re repeatedly not able to, then you can start assuming the worst and then start being more aggressive in the way how you do stuff. For example, at our company we have a process where we ask questions, figure out what\u2019s wrong, making sure that we have supported them as much as we can to succeed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0And we ask them all the questions, like do you guys have any issues? And we say that multiple times, do you have any challenges, do you have any issues, multiple, multiple, multiple times, and then if they still don\u2019t improve, then we say, \u201cLook, we\u2019ve tried to support you as much as we can, is there anything else that we are unable to support you with?\u201d And if they say no, then we say, \u201cOkay, well, it looks like you have a challenge here and I\u2019m not sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So right now, I can only assume that you are unable to do your work or you are not really committed.\u201d So now, we have to take it to the next step, which is if we want to keep this person\u2026 By the way, most likely at this point we probably won\u2019t want to keep them. We would\u2019ve already said, \u201cHey, maybe we\u2019re not the right fit,\u201d and we would end that relationship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think especially when you\u2019re a remote team, trust is literally everything. You also mentioned that, based on what you said, the key of everything here is you hire the right people, hiring correctly. So as you transitioned to be a more remote-friendly company, or you are a remote company, right now, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Which means that these people that you hire, you\u2019re not only hiring contractors anymore, you\u2019re also hiring remote core team members, people that you want to have a lot of interactions with and you want to trust to\u2026 how to say? To apply themselves and help the company go to a better direction. Is there any adjustment that you made in your hiring process? Because now it\u2019s much more important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So the way how I do it now is it\u2019s all test based.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We test them for actually tasks that they would do. So we basically test them for the job. If the job is that they have to write emails and pitch to people, we just get them to write emails and pitch to people.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Right now we\u2019re hiring for someone to help us organize events, online events, for our conference platform, which I\u2019ll talk about later. So, we actually get them to do it. We actually get them to organize the event. Because from a remote working perspective, all you care about is really the results.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In some ways, remote working the focus is really on results because it\u2019s not about how well you interview, it\u2019s not about how well you dress, it\u2019s not about \u2026 Almost and actually in some ways it\u2019s not about how well you get along with your boss from a friendship standpoint. Sometimes, you might meet someone, you interview them, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, you know what, we connect well,\u201d and that might give you some bias. I\u2019m not saying that we wouldn\u2019t connect, I\u2019m just saying when you do a remote interview, it\u2019s a bit more difficult to connect. So that element is removed, so you really, really just evaluate that person\u2019s communication skills and their ability to do whatever the task is, that\u2019s required.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we do, I\u2019ll a take on test. We give them a list of tasks that they need to do to test their ability, and that itself already evaluates how much that they want the job. The people that say, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t need to do this test because I have so much experience,\u201d then it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, great, we\u2019re probably not the right fit.\u201d Because people, if they put effort in the test, it shows a lot. It shows that they really, really are serious and they\u2019re not just \u2026 it just shows commitment and I like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then the next level is we do some interviews and the third part is we do a one-week trial, paid one-week trial. In some cases, it might be one or two days that\u2019s not paid, but for some of the core members, it\u2019s definitely paid for one week.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And the one-week trial for me is probably the most effective way. It\u2019s not scalable, but it\u2019s very effective. I\u2019ve pretty much been able to not have anyone leave after I started this process. It\u2019s just so effective for me. I know that person really, really well within that one week. Not super well, but I\u2019m saying that I know quite well how they work within that one week and then I\u2019m very confident to say, \u201cOkay, I know how you work, then we can start working.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s just, you would never buy a car or buy a computer without test driving it, or date around or marry someone without test driving them. So I feel like you should definitely do that for key employees or core team members.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. How long is the usual hiring cycle, especially for core team members?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a bit longer, I have to be honest. It\u2019s around about maybe a month to month and a half, but one of the interesting things is that we\u2019ve been able to optimize that process and we\u2019ve been able to get the process down where people come in and they just do the tests and then we start the one-week trial. So we can get someone in within like two months if we can. I would [inaudible 00:17:11] say is the only reason why this works is because right now, there\u2019s a lot more people that want to work from home than people that want to hire remote workers. So from an employee perspective, you get a lot of talent and you can basically target the entire world. That helps tremendously in the speed of hiring.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I think it\u2019s normal for remote companies to have more than one-month hiring cycle. I\u2019ve seen that other companies like TaxJar that are based in Boston and I know TaxJar or even Zapier, they have really long hiring cycles just because that it makes more sense to be more careful when you\u2019re hiring remotely. You have this skin in the game approach where you work with these people for a couple of weeks or almost a month to figure out how they work. Yeah, I think it\u2019s pretty common and I think that\u2019s a lot of-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it depends on how you calculate the hiring cycle. Because a lot of these companies, they will start a freelance contract first, like for one month. And then after the one month, then they offer something more permanent and more real. We do the same thing. After that one week, we also have another one-month freelance contract as well. So it\u2019s actually not two months, it could be extended to three months easily because of that one-month trial. It\u2019s a freelance contract and then after we evaluate them at the end of the month, then we make the call.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So going back to more on the team management side communication side of things, I\u2019ve listened on one of your previous podcasts, I think it\u2019s the one with Running Remote, you mentioned that you\u2019re a very operational person. You like to do things very hands on. Setting up Zapier or write some codes and whatnot. However, I think when you are transitioning to be a remote team, you have to play this CEO role a bit more, like you have the company vision and those kind of leadership role, like big picture things. Was that a challenge for you to transition from this more operational role to more\u2026 how to say it, high up, so to speak?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0From the perspective of Riotly, which is where a lot of the growth and the scaling came from, would definitely say that yes, it was challenging to get less operational and more high level. I think honestly for me, the only reason how I was able to get away from doing some operational stuff is I just didn\u2019t have enough time, like I just had not enough time to take care of everything. And one of the things that I really did really well, I think I do relatively well, is creating SOPs and processes. I do that relatively well. So I create the right processes and get all that stuff done in order to scale myself so that I don\u2019t have to look at all that kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, Zapier is a good example of that. Like Zapier, I don\u2019t mind creating all the Zapiers, all the Zaps, you do it once. Because you know what the process flow is, you do it once and it\u2019s pretty much done and set. So, that stuff is stuff that I enjoy doing, but slowly not doing that initially it was just because there just was not enough time. It was more of like I was forced into giving up a lot of that stuff, for me personally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s interesting you mentioned that you like building SOPs and processes because a lot of startup founders that I know, they actually hate processes, you know what I mean? And a lot of them actually had trouble when they\u2019re transitioning from a smaller startup, a nimble or agile startup to a medium-stage one where they need more processes and they just absolutely hate it. And it\u2019s interesting that I feel like in your case, this is a superpower for you to actually\u2026 You like to design the process and then let everyone do it. So that\u2019s super interesting, actually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think for me, the way how I see it is like I see it in a way when I do things manually, I always love to do things manually, and then when I develop the process, it\u2019s like I\u2019m starting to hand it off to someone. That\u2019s how I see process. I see process as we\u2019re now at the next stage of scale and I can now hand it off to someone, so I need to create the process to give to that person. Now, I think if you weren\u2019t in a remote company, if everybody worked at the same place, that training would be done side by side. I would have, \u201cHey Person A or friend, I need you to do this, so I\u2019m going to teach you right now, blah, blah blah, blah, blah.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, I just do that. This is the same thing, very similar. And what I do is I bring someone in and I teach them, but record my entire stream while I\u2019m teaching them. And then after that, I tell that person, I say, \u201cHey, you watch this video, you learn it, that is the process.\u201d And then we use the video as basically the process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We use the video as the process. Because when you train someone, when you train the next person, all you need to do is just show them the video and then they do it. And if the process changes, you just re-record it as it is. So, what we\u2019ve done at this scale, when I talk about SOPs, it\u2019s not an actual document. It\u2019s actually not a document, it\u2019s actually a video recording.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And the reason why is because people, when you show it to them in a video, the learning rate is much faster, it\u2019s super fast. And you can follow along and then people can pause and start. And the other great reason why video is so great is that when you teach someone something for the first time, what percent do you think the average person is going to be able to absorb?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0True.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s probably maybe 50% at most of what you said. So they need to go back and review it anyways. And so that\u2019s why I like using products like Loom to do that kind of recording.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, Loom is amazing, I also use it from time to time. And I think this is a really smart way to approach it because now I realize it, a lot of people that I know that hate processes, they actually not necessarily hate the process, but they also hate the documentation of it, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I need to spend time writing that, but if you start with recording a video, and you can still delegate, \u201cHey, I recorded this video,\u201d and then ask someone, \u201cCan you create a written version of it?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, exactly. That\u2019s a much easier way. You could even say, \u201cHere\u2019s a video.\u201d And you train someone and you tell that person after you train them you say, \u201cPlease write the documentation of that video and give it back to me.\u201d I\u2019ve done this before, get it back to and I review it. Then it\u2019s like they\u2019re just translating the information onto a piece of paper. But the reason why I don\u2019t like documents yet, processes yet, is because our processes are still in flux. So recording a video is just so easy. It just takes five minutes, or the amount of time that you need to do for that process, and you can talk through it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And recording video, it\u2019s in a way some like magical, it\u2019s some like high-fidelity communications, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not only a written document. I interviewed the CEO of a startup called Yac Chat, so they basically are voice communication tools for remote teams and it\u2019s amazing to see when you move out from the written form of communication, things can get easier if you know how to do it well and it just opens different \u2026 how to say it, different possibilities or different feelings for your remote team. People feel closer and whatnot when you move out from the written form, Slack and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Still around the \u2026 Before we move on to our next topic, still around the \u2026 how to say it, the topic of communication. When you\u2019re transitioning to be a better leader, to be a better communicator, so to speak, is there any top resources that help you to go to that place, any recommended books, podcast episodes, or blog posts?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0To be a better leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, when you\u2019re transitioning to be a better remote leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so Workplaceless has a whole module about leadership, workplaces.com. That place is actually pretty good. In terms of books, like Lisette Sutherland has a pretty good book about that type of stuff, Laurel Farrer, she\u2019s definitely one of the major I guess\u2026 I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s an influencer, but a major player in terms of remote work and communication and she\u2019s pretty good. That\u2019s specific for remote leadership and communication, not for general though.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it, right, awesome. Now, I want to talk more about Remo. Is it, the full name\u2019s Remo or just Remo App?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Remo. Yeah, Remo.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Remo. So can you elaborate more about Remo to our audience again?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Remo is really hard to describe in words. Usually at this point I would show a video, maybe you can put a YouTube link there and I can send you it and you can take a look at it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0But imagine The Sims, the game The Sims. The Sims is 3D and people walk around and stuff like that. Imagine that except it\u2019s 2D and it\u2019s like a top-down map of a building. Kind of like an architecture drawing. And people are represented by circles and in each circle, it\u2019s like that person\u2019s face. You can double-click and you can go into any room that you want. And the moment that you walk in that room, you can turn on your audio and video and you can talk to the people in that room immediately, just in that room. So, you can think of as like Skype on steroids, like a Chatroulette for work. And the biggest difference of really what we\u2019re trying to solve is several things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One is that when we talk about work and we talk about meetings, we talk about how people communicate, people do their work and then they have a meeting and then they do their work again. And they\u2019ll go to lunch and they\u2019ll eat lunch with their colleagues, or people will walk around in meetings and have hallway chats and all kind of stuff. That\u2019s what a normal in an office is like.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But in remote work, you\u2019ve got work and then meetings and then you don\u2019t really have anything else. And what you also don\u2019t have is you\u2019re also in a box, inside one room in your own office and you don\u2019t see anybody else. So, there\u2019s no extraverbal hallway communication and there\u2019s no visual communication. I can\u2019t see someone that\u2019s actually there, their back for example. You can\u2019t see it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>What we\u2019re trying to solve, number one, is the feeling of togetherness, the feeling that we all are here together. And that this is our home, this is our office. And using one common visual map as a visual language, a foundation where we can all say, \u201cOh, let\u2019s go to the Game of Thrones room,\u201d and point at things that we all know and see. So, number one is presence. Number two is the fact that because of the reduced amount of social communication, people get either lonely or they get isolated or they don\u2019t feel as a team and there\u2019s no social elements to work. Or it\u2019s just literally just work, like you\u2019re literally just sitting at your desk doing your work and then having meetings. So we\u2019re trying to solve that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the third final thing is the ability to talk to someone immediately. And when you\u2019re in the office you can do that. You can just tap somebody on the shoulder, you can\u2019t just immediately just turn around and say, \u201cHey, I have this question,\u201d to your colleague right next to you to get feedback, to whatever. But it\u2019s really hard, it\u2019s a huge barrier, when you do that when it comes to a remote work. And so, we want to lower that barrier of entry for people so that they can easily enter into high-quality, high-resolution communication easily, and not just talk through voice or just talk through text, which in relative aspects is relatively low-quality communication. It\u2019s very one dimensional. There\u2019s a lot of things you can miss just by text alone. So, those are the things that we\u2019re trying to solve.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I think in general, a lot of remote companies are trying to tackle these problem with a combination of Zoom, Slack, and probably there\u2019s another employee experience person that organize a bigger meeting or let\u2019s watch a video-prepared meeting, I\u2019m not sure. How is it different from that? How is Remo different from that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about Slack and Zoom first, and then you can tell me what else I need to compare to, which other one which other one I need to compare. So, Slack is text-based. It\u2019s just text-based. So, that\u2019s number one. There\u2019s a lot of back and forth that happens when you\u2019re on Slack. There\u2019s a lot of times when I use my product where I just want to talk to someone else, I just call them. Or I just go to her room and ask them a question and that saves you a lot of time of that back and forth, that\u2019s number one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Number two is that misunderstanding, and number three is the amount of time you have to spend typing things. TaxJar has a place in communication. All I feel or what we feel at Remo is text should be used for everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>It should be used for some things, but it can\u2019t be one size fits all. I think there\u2019s certain situations where you should be changing it up to different mediums in order to convey feelings, be more persuasive, give feedback, do more things that require more of a human touch to it. So that\u2019s number one.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Zoom is great for meetings and it goes back to what I was talking about before, which everyone does meetings at work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0But Zoom doesn\u2019t tackle everything else. It doesn\u2019t do anything else aside from that 30 minutes of meetings. When you go to a Zoom meeting \u2026 I know some people that do a really great job that they\u2019re like, \u201cOh Hey, how\u2019s it going? How\u2019s the family, blah blah.\u201d They get to a chat, which is normal when you work at an office, and you have those conversations. But in remote work, a lot of people don\u2019t know how to do that, feel shy, they haven\u2019t developed that close enough rapport beforehand to be able to ask those type of questions. There\u2019s a lot of [inaudible 00:33:26] and a lot of that stuff doesn\u2019t necessarily happen there. And therefore, it doesn\u2019t happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, I think that makes sense. I guess with the visual \u2026 How does it? With the visual aspect of Remo, I saw when I first saw you guys, I saw that, hey, this is actually super interesting because they add the playfulness essence on it-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yup.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know what I mean? So it\u2019s not all about work. I know this will be sound very sales here and I\u2019m supporting with there\u2019s this genuinely what I felt when I first-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026I saw your product on your website. So yeah, I just found the idea fascinating. Currently, now you guys are developing this mostly for internal communications or remote work. Any under surprising use cases that you\u2019ve found people are using it for that you never thought of? Because in my mind, there\u2019s a lot of different things-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Before I answer that, I do want to mention one of the thing about remote work is<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I think there\u2019s a lot of ways to do remote work. Every company does a little bit differently, and I think what we believe remote work is, is that remote work needs to have that human element to it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We believe that for remote work to be adopted by more people, it needs to be more accessible. It needs to be more real work and have that social element rather than not. And it needs to have that presence and that ability to connect with people very, very easily. And that\u2019s what\u2019s core to remote. It\u2019s more about the human experience between people, how to develop connections. And my belief is that the future of work isn\u2019t remote work and everybody just works by themselves.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The future of work is, you\u2019re able to connect with people at a very, very high quality way and very easily socialize with them just like in an offline environment. And if just using text or just using audio or even just video without anything else, that alone will not be the\u2026 I believe will not just by itself be able to solve the future of work, be the future of what remote work is. And just the final point, the reason why we\u2019ve developed Remo, because what a lot of people view remote work is, is that it\u2019s either zero or one. It\u2019s either I come in and I don\u2019t know anything or I\u2019m fully remote and I work by myself in my room. And for someone who has worked remotely or as someone who has not worked remotely or they worked in a co-located location with others, I think that\u2019s too big of a job.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think that\u2019s way too big of a job. It\u2019s like telling a basketball team, \u201cOh, hey, go play football.\u201d The first thing is that the coach can\u2019t even yell across the field to tell you what to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s such a big distance. That\u2019s a really something that you can compare to, that\u2019s the biggest thing. And so we believe at Remo is, we don\u2019t claim to say that this is the right way to remote work, we say that this is like 0.2, this is like 0.4, it helps people get into the idea of remote work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Something that\u2019s familiar with what they\u2019ve been doing already and how do you slowly sink into that remote work environment while retaining some of these social aspects, rather than just cutting off all those social aspects and expect people to be okay with that. And I think that might work for some, but I don\u2019t think it works for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, that makes sense. So basically you\u2019re saying that going forward, you can see Remo \u2026 Remo, sorry. You can see Remo being promoted or being used for even other broader use cases other than internal team management. So it\u2019s big, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, that brings a good question. We started to host events now. Internally, we use the product a little bit differently too, we experiment with it, and one of the ways we did use it for is for happy hours and everything. So we set up a time and we say, \u201cHey guys, we\u2019re going to have you have an happy hour.\u201d And people will just organize themselves into different rooms and talk, and they jump into from room to room and then they do that. So we started as, \u201cHey, why don\u2019t we do this for networking?\u201d And so we created a similar platform where it\u2019s just strictly for it, to help people to come together to network. So it\u2019s like Webinar plus Networking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we did this for the remote work summit where it had 10,000 people go to that summit. And we basically had a lot of spaces, having people in the comment, they network across the different tables, turn on their audio and video, and then they listen to a discussion. So we\u2019ve literally 100% basically mimicked an offline conference experience online. And when we did this, the response was really amazing. And so, this is something that we\u2019ve seen as another use case for our platform.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I can totally imagine that like as you mentioned, like an offline event, there are several speakers that\u2019s currently speaking and you can just hop on from one room to another to see which topics interest you the most.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And if you don\u2019t it, then you just leave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So currently, I feel like Remo is in a way\u2026 How to say it? It\u2019s quite innovative in a way, the essence is not exactly new, as in it\u2019s just communication, better communication. But it\u2019s innovative in a way that you present it, using it for Webinars and whatnot. Have you ever met any challenge when you are marketing Remo itself? Does that makes sense?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. The biggest challenge I think is that people need to come in and experience it with a group of people in order for them to feel the full aha moment, and I think that\u2019s a big challenge. It\u2019s a big challenge to get people in and it\u2019s a big challenge to get other people to come in, and to get that feeling to get that sense that, \u201cOh, this is how it\u2019s like.\u201d I think that\u2019s one big challenge. I think the second biggest challenge is that it\u2019s a hard thing to describe. It\u2019s not easy to describe these two people and to make them feel excited about it because it\u2019s an experience product. It\u2019s a product where you have to experience in order to get it. So the way how we try to pitch this product is, we try to make it as\u2026 we use video a lot, we basically use video a lot trying to explain the product to people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that makes sense, I totally agree with you. When I first see Remo, it looks cool. But I think to fully appreciate it, I probably need to be there in a certain event for example, or use it fully with my team to actually appreciate the whole experience of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So yeah, I can see that. You mentioned several things about the product itself and also your transition quote unquote from a normal CEO to be CEO that leads a remote team. How many of the things that you\u2019ve learned during that transition part affect your product positions on developing Remo? For example, when you realize that, okay, price is super important, and that\u2019s why you want to build a more social aspect of Remo. Basically, is there any learnings?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a few. The first one is, trust can be better established if the managers can actually see what people are doing, but not seeing someone 100% what they\u2019re doing. I\u2019ll give you an example, when you\u2019re at work, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0When you walk by someone, you don\u2019t go and peer over their screen and look at what they\u2019re doing, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm (affirmative).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t do that. But you do feel that they\u2019re working. And-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026from a manager\u2019s standpoint, you feel that the working is like, well their back is towards you. They\u2019re clicking, maybe they\u2019re on a phone call. Most managers, if you hire well, you know that they either don\u2019t go on Facebook or you\u2019re okay with that because you trust them that you know what you\u2019re doing. So, I try to replicate that in Remo. For example in Remo, you can see when people are talking, when people are typing and when people are turned their video or share screen on. So it\u2019s really exciting to see a group of your teammates in a room with share screen video on. It\u2019s just an icon on top of their circle avatars. I don\u2019t actually see their screen, it\u2019s just an icon to show that they\u2019re sharing their screen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0And we also have another icon, is when they\u2019re talking, that there\u2019ll be an icon showing that their mouth would move, an icon showing that they\u2019re talking. A little yellow icon of an emoji. And that changed everything. Because then now, I have this feeling that people are working. It\u2019s such a superficial thing, managers shouldn\u2019t be saying that, they should be [inaudible 00:43:34] them, but \u2026 I think it\u2019s partially that you see them working, but I think the second thing is that you see feedback.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You see things going on. You don\u2019t know exactly whether they\u2019re working. They could not be working, they could be talking about random stuff. But you see things happening, it builds up that feeling that like, \u201cHey, you know what, we\u2019re doing great stuff here.\u201d That\u2019s one. And the second thing is asking people how they are, doing check-ins. For that, we\u2019re developing a better feature where people can write in very quickly what they\u2019ve been up to, what they\u2019re doing. For example, what is our favorite game of Thrones character? It\u2019s a very short Twitter update.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this Twitter update pops up very rarely on a map. And so, you see what they answered on a certain question, for that question of the day, for example. And you can see those questions and you can also see their emojis. So it\u2019s like a status update, but it\u2019s a status update on a specific contextual topic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0And that conceptual topic drives conversations and it also allows you to feel more empathetic to people to say, \u201cHey let\u2019s \u2026 Or maybe you\u2019re not in a good mood, what\u2019s happening at home?\u201d And allows you to start those conversations with people so that you can ask and understand, oh, maybe they have a lot of things going on at home, therefore that\u2019s impacted work. Okay, what\u2019s going on? What\u2019s the context behind that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think that makes sense. Even though when we say on remoting, trust is 100% important. You just mentioned as a manager or as a leader, you should be able to trust your team member that they are actually doing stuff. But my mind like you mentioned that with Remo, you can actually see that this person is sharing his screen and this person is having a video call with another person. To me, it seems like you\u2019re giving the right amount of transparency without being invasive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0The most invasive one is, okay, I want to crack your monitor, so that\u2019s the [inaudible 00:45:57]. But the least invasive way is like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re online on Slack, you\u2019re probably working.\u201d Especially when you\u2019re new \u2026 How does that? New leaders in remote team, you probably can feel that now. But with Remo, it can give you the right amount of transparency. So I think it makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think for Remo, one of the things that we really value is that remote work is you can do every, the things that you want to do whenever you want, and you\u2019re able to have the privacy. Nobody wants invasive tracking. And so, we definitely don\u2019t feel that that is the solution to everything. However, it\u2019s, how do you balance the right amount of transparency so that it doesn\u2019t make people uncomfortable with that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to do, and that\u2019s what our map allows us to do. And that\u2019s actually our biggest differentiator, is this map. This map allows us to bring in a lot of these type of elements that make people feel better more transparency. Other tools out there, they can\u2019t afford that, they\u2019re unable to do that. It\u2019s just text or it\u2019s just a chat box with a bunch of names on it, and you have to manually update your status on it. Those are all good stuff. That\u2019s all great. I think that works for a lot of teams and that is the way how we differentiate ourselves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. So for the office map, you actually can design the office yourself?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We have a package where you can design your office and then we can then set it up for you, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0You should sell office template, that sounds like offices from certain sitcoms or something that. Like the [crosstalk 00:47:42]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s a cool idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026could be office. That\u2019ll be interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s a really good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, what\u2019s next for Remo? What\u2019s your next product roadmap or events or activities that you\u2019re planning right now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0With respect to Remo, a lot of stuff that we\u2019re doing right now is really related, going more into the social aspect of the remote workplace, I guess, if you could say. Like how do you make people connect better? And we\u2019re really, really focused on that, on the connection between people and how to create natural conversations, how to make people feel more comfortable in sharing or participating in events within the company. So we\u2019re really, really focused on that type of aspect. And the second thing we\u2019re focusing on is doing more events. So we\u2019re doing a lot, lot more events now, we have an event coming up this week, and [inaudible 00:48:45] we have another event next week for remote working as well-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026which you guys are a part of actually, which could [inaudible 00:48:52] sorry, Arc is a part of. So, we\u2019re doing a lot of online events.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. That\u2019s super interesting. So, my last question for this interview, some of our listeners, our audience out there are probably startup founders or CEOs or managers, that is, want to try to hire remote team members, mostly core team members or even contractor, but they probably are still hesitate to take the step because they\u2019re afraid, they don\u2019t know how to manage people remotely. Is there any advice from you to them to make sure that they\u2019re again, the transition to be a remote leader much more smoother?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think the first thing is as a leader, you should definitely work remotely for a few days. You should try to work remotely a few days. Even if you have team members in your office, you should tell them you and your whole team to work remotely for maybe two days a week, three days a week, and then slowly ramp it up to four or five days a week, and have the whole team realize what it\u2019s like to work remotely and use that as a baseline and say, \u201cThis is what it\u2019s like, and we need to be remote first,\u201d if that is the goal-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026to be remote first, and then that gives everybody that feeling and understanding. And then the second part is to build trust within your employees by having deep conversations about expectations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Here are the expectations, here are the rules, this is what I expect from you, making sure those expectations are very clear.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I do have a transition template that helps people transition from a normal [inaudible 00:50:56] company to a remote company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0And it gives you all the documents that you need to prepare. It tells you all the documents you need to prepare, it tells you these are the things that you need to do., and it\u2019s something where \u2026 it gives you even a timeline of how to do it. And also if your company\u2019s really big for example, and you want to transition to a fully remote team, it\u2019s also that. So if you\u2019re just hiring, there\u2019s a lot of stuff in there that you can definitely pull out. So for example, communication protocols, all these documents, all they do is they just set the expectations between the manager and the employee or the team member so that they all understand that these are the expectations that are being set.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you follow them or not, is up to the company itself, and whether you want to. But at least there\u2019s something written on paper where people can look at, because that\u2019s all there is. In a remote world, if it\u2019s not written on paper and it\u2019s talked about, it\u2019s very difficult to communicate to a team, if you just verbally say it. It\u2019s very difficult. And that\u2019s when [inaudible 00:52:03] case where Slack is useful. Where you have policies, you have announcements, Slack is great for that because it\u2019s on paper, it\u2019s on writing, it\u2019s in words. And that\u2019s the point where Slack for chat is really good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I would say that and then to make that jump, I would also say, to hire remote full-time member, is to make sure that when you hire your first person, you really need to work hard, making sure that you connect with that person on a personal level. So, having a one on one chat with that person. Or the manager to have that one on one chat with that person on a weekly basis. I think that\u2019s pretty important, very, very important. Usually people should be doing that, I think that when you\u2019re working in a co-located office, but sometimes people don\u2019t do that for whatever reason.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe not on time or maybe the team is not big enough. But for a remote team member, you should always do it no matter what the size of the team is. I got burned because I did not build a deep enough connection with remote team member and then they left.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because they didn\u2019t feel that they\u2019re part of the team, they didn\u2019t feel\u2026 They\u2019re just this one person in the clouds and it just wasn\u2019t good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0They can feel like a second class citizen especially when it\u2019s co-located.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0For the [inaudible 00:53:30] you mentioned, there\u2019s something that you can share with the audience?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I can definitely share that template with the audience for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We\u2019ll definitely share it on our show notes and also re-tweet it and our social media if you don\u2019t mind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019d be great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool. Ho Yin, thank you so much for your time to actually learn a lot and it\u2019s a very fascinating talk. So for the listener out there, where can they find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0They can find me on LinkedIn if they searched for\u2026 but actually you can find me on Twitter, it\u2019s just Ho Yin, H-O-Y-I-N-C, and also LinkedIn, I can give you the links as well for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, awesome. Ho Yin, thank you so much for your time today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. Thank you so much, Jovian. This is great, this is fun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Have a good one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ho Yin:<\/strong>\u00a0Thanks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s it for another episode of Outside the Valley brought to you by Arc. We created this podcast with the hope that in each episode, you can learn something new from other remote startup people. So if you have any feedback or suggestions, please don\u2019t hesitate to reach out to me at Jovian@arc.dev. It\u2019s J-O-V-I-A-N at A-R-C dot DEV. Or you can find us on Twitter at arcdotdev. See you next week with another episode of Outside the Valley and ciao.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Remo&#8217;s Ho Yin Cheung shares his journey transforming into a remote startup leader, including tips and resources for others to learn from.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":404,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-402","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-thought-leadership"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.6 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Transforming Into a Remote Startup Leader With Ho Yin Cheung of Remo<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Remo&#039;s Ho Yin Cheung shares his journey transforming into a remote startup leader, including tips and resources for others to learn from.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, nofollow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Transforming Into a Remote Startup 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