{"id":365,"date":"2020-03-03T18:47:00","date_gmt":"2020-03-03T16:47:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/?p=365"},"modified":"2025-06-11T12:56:50","modified_gmt":"2025-06-11T04:56:50","slug":"reskilling-via-remote-work","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/reskilling-via-remote-work\/","title":{"rendered":"Re-Skilling Via Remote Work With Laurel Farrer of Distribute Consulting"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I\u2019m gonna use a strong word, it\u2019s very selfish of tech to think that remote work is only happening in their companies. It\u2019s happening everywhere.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we have Laurel Ferrer, CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.distributeconsulting.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Distribute Consulting<\/a>\u00a0and founder of the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.remoteworkassociation.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remote Work Association<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode, we talked about how remote work can help the development of rural areas by enabling entrepreneurship, strengthening local technology culture, and re-training the local workforce to utilize their skills for remote work opportunities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also talked about how to measure the impact of transitioning a company to remote-first or fully distributed, how to measure productivity costs, and why remote work is not just limited to the tech industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re enjoying the podcast, please consider leaving a review on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/mastering-remote\/id1481937930\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The podcast is also available on your favorite players:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/mastering-remote\/id1481937930\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">iTunes<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.google.com\/feed\/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL21hc3RlcmluZy1yZW1vdGU\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/castro.fm\/podcast\/5a2c6978-e8e7-4f02-a47d-ca3474778329\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Castro<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1481937930\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Overcast<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5qzXgcHzieXIRtXglSmUE8?si=rMPobXZtQwSU0wQ3grTAxA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/player.fm\/series\/outside-the-valley\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Player.fm<\/a>, and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Technology-Podcasts\/Outside-The-Valley-p1251704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tune In<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Follow us on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/arcdotdev\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a>\u00a0to get updates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Looking for top talent fast? See how <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em> can help you:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Find developers, designers, marketers, and more<br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time remote + fully vetted<\/em><em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Save up to 80% with global hires<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Hire top talent with Arc risk-free \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"topics-also-covered-on-the-podcast-episode%3A\">Topics also covered on the podcast episode:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>How Laurel persuaded the executives of her previous company to experiment with remote work<\/li><li>Why Laurel thinks compliance is the number one thing companies should figure out before going remote<\/li><li>How Laurel measures the cost of transitioning to remote work (as well as the metrics for measuring whether this transition has been successful)<\/li><li>Why remote work can strengthen local technology culture<\/li><li>How remote work can enable both re-skilling and up-skilling<\/li><li>How the right training can enable older members of the workforce to get modern remote opportunities<\/li><li>How can leaders help new remote workers develop their\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/self-discipline-remote-work-8se6kn8qyr\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">self-discipline<\/a>\u00a0(without micromanaging!)<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"mentioned-resources%3A\">Mentioned resources:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.distributeconsulting.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Distribute Consulting<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.remoteworkassociation.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Remote Work Association<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=3qHkcs3kG44\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The Joe Rogan Experience podcast with Naval Ravikant<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/joshpigford.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Josh Pigford<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/baremetrics.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Baremetrics<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.yonder.io\/post\/could-remote-work-be-economic-developments-new-secret-weapon\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Could remote work be economic development\u2019s new secret weapon?<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/remoteworkcertificate.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Rural Online Initiative<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/blog\/podcast-ep13-time-doctor-liam-martin-8aldhrbcb7\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Liam Martin of Time Doctor: How to Be a Remote Executive<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/laurel_farrer\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Laurel\u2019s Twitter<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/laurel-farrer\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Laurel\u2019s LinkedIn<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"full-transcript%3A\">Full transcript:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Welcome to another episode of \u201cOutside The Valley,\u201d a podcast by Arc, the remote hiring platform that helps you hire remote software engineers and teams easily. Here, we interview remote startup leaders, remote work advocates, and remote workers of distributed teams who thrive outside of Silicon Valley. I\u2019m your host, Jovian Gautama.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Our guest today is a, or I\u2019ll say is\u00a0<em>the<\/em>, remote work consultant and strategist. She\u2019s the CEO of Distribute Consulting and the founder of the Remote Work Association. Her writing about remote work impacts of virtual jobs, management, and human resources are also routinely featured on Forbes. If you want to know anything about the future of work not only on the individual level but also on the organization level and social level, she\u2019s definitely the expert. So, very pleased to be joined by Laurel Farrer. Laurel, welcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, just today I was re-listening to a podcast, like Joe Rogan Podcast is very cliche. And with the Naval Ravikant the founder of AngelList. And there\u2019s one point where they\u2019re talking about the argument that there\u2019ll be new job in the future like 10 years ago you can\u2019t imagine the jobs that we have right now. Ten years ago if you\u2019re talking about podcasts there will be a podcaster, there will be a podcast host and podcast producer. Or if there\u2019ll be a remote work consultant people will think like, \u201cAre you crazy?\u201d So, I just find it, like, an interesting thing because it keeps evolving. Remote work consultancy is really something that I feel like is really unique. Just to kick things off, can you share a bit more about yourself and how did you came into, like, making remote work your thing, like, contribute more to the whole ecosystem so to speak?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Well, I have been a remote worker myself for about 13 years now and I took my own team remote as an operations manager at that time and that\u2019s when I really saw the benefits for the organization. Like you mentioned then, so I was seeing high product activity, higher talent acquisition, higher retention, lower costs, you know, all of these benefits. And I thought, \u201cOh, that\u2019s fantastic.\u201d But I naively assumed that, you know, it was a very organic thing, everybody was seeing the same benefits as I was and so companies started asking me questions and so I would help them in the offseason of my job and it all just evolved very organically until I worked as the CEO of a fully distributed company of about 500 and when I was there, it was an extremely toxic environment at the executive level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And that\u2019s when I saw that there was a right way to do remote work and a wrong way.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And that was also the time that IBM and Yahoo were retracting their policies. And I\u2019m an organizational development nerd and so I said, \u201cWe really have to figure out exactly what the X factors are here that will put you on the right path or the wrong path so that we as organizational leaders can make this intentional changes in your workforce. And so that\u2019s how Distribute Consulting started, just identifying that remote work is very easy to fall into but just because it\u2019s happening doesn\u2019t mean that you\u2019re doing it well. And so that\u2019s why Distribute exists is to make remote work and virtual jobs and digital infrastructures better, not just build them but to help our businesses leverage this as a strategy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s funny you mentioned, like, on your previous\u2026I\u2019ll say previous client. The toxic environment is from the executive so how would you change that? Because I feel like if the toxic environment is, you know, on the employee level so to speak. It\u2019s like a top to bottom approach, right? The executive, \u201cHey, do this.\u201d If the toxic environment is on the executive level, right, which means you need to change the mind of the executive. Just curious, like, how did you\u2026 I feel like it\u2019s a broad question but what are the two or three most important things that you did to change this mindset?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, well remote work is unique in this space, right? Any company can have a bad culture and a toxic culture but it comes to light a little bit more because there\u2019s this great debate of what actually fuels productivity the most. Is it good leadership or is it flexibility? And thankfully, Gallup did a great, great study on this that says: Well, it\u2019s actually both. When you offer great leadership and flexibility that\u2019s when you see the optimal results. You\u2019re going to see results from both individually but when you combine them that\u2019s when you\u2019re going to see the maximum optimization of your workforce.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>And so that\u2019s exactly what we do is we say, \u201cLook, let\u2019s implement these virtual workflows and protocols, write policies that will help people stay safe, all that kind of stuff but then also let\u2019s get training for your management that will help them understand how to engage in this virtual space.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if I boil it down to three things to answer your question, the first thing that I always do is make sure that the company is compliant. So, we write a remote work policy to make sure that those employees don\u2019t feel scared about losing their flexibility.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s very, very common right now because most remote work arrangements are happening on an individual level. Like, \u201cYes you can work from home because, you know, your husband is deployed,\u201d or something like that. So, it\u2019s an individual thing. So, we make sure that there is a standard policy to make sure that it\u2019s nondiscriminatory, it\u2019s there, it\u2019s successful, and it\u2019s safe. That way, we can feel more safe in their role so we make the workforce compliant in that way. Then, we also provide training for the management and for the workforce. Everybody needs to understand how collaboration in a virtual environment is different. It\u2019s not a big difference but it is a very significant difference and you don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so if you do fall into this then it\u2019s like, \u201cOh yeah, why would I need to have more transparent communication? Like, is that a thing?\u201d And we say yeah, it\u2019s actually a really big thing. So, we get them policies, we get them training, and then also just really calculating the return of this change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>A lot of people are not understanding how impactful this is to their productivity and so because of that they\u2019re not valuing remote work and flexibility policies as much as they should and they think that it\u2019s insignificant so, therefore, that\u2019s why we see policy retractions, right?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, \u201cOh, it\u2019s not a big deal. Bring everybody back into the office.\u201d Because they haven\u2019t actively calculated how much this is benefiting their organization, how much real estate savings, how much productivity costs are being saved, all of that. And so when we actually show them a number and say, \u201cLook, this is how much it\u2019s boosting your bottom line,\u201d suddenly it\u2019s something worth preserving and leveraging a lot more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0What you said just now are super interesting. I like that you start with compliance first because, you know, when we\u2019re talking about remote work people are always talking about productivity, high retention, but are you compliant? Like, this is the unsexy part of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. That\u2019s where I specialize is the unsexy side.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, when I was doing the research for this interview you wrote in an article, I think in Forbes, \u201cIs remote illegal?\u201d And I was like, \u201cOh yeah, is it illegal?\u201d I haven\u2019t even clicked into it. Like, this is something that people, kind of, forget and, you know, there are thought leaders everywhere but I cannot find, like, compliance thought leaders. Especially when it comes to, like, you have distributed all around the world then it gets even more tricky.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a massive problem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Do you feel like this is still a massive problem? I know that we have, like, some startups or services that, you know, kind of, like, helping on that but do you still feel like this is still a super huge problem?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Yeah, the number one problem that those startups are dealing with is just HR compliance and making sure that employment laws are being met in every single region in which you have employees and making sure that taxation is covered. So, that\u2019s a very complex logistical problem but that\u2019s only one of the compliance issues that we\u2019re seeing. What most remote workers don\u2019t understand is that how much work goes into creating a safe compliant environment in an office. There are days and days and millions of dollars that go into information security, workplace design, ergonomics like OSHA standards.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, there are so many things that go into play that the workers and, you know, direct workforce, boots on the ground they never know about. They just come into the workplace, sit down, and start working. And so when you ignore all of that investment in safety, in security, in compliance and you just start working off-site, it\u2019s all illegal. You\u2019re breaking about 15 to 20 different laws just by going off-site if you don\u2019t update it correctly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yeah, it\u2019s really critical that we, number one, update our policies and our infrastructures like I said in order to recognize and fill in the gap of that compliance but then also to inform our remote workers. Like, if we just consider health and safety standards for just a second, this was a big problem back in the \u201940s, \u201950s, \u201960s people were getting carpal tunnel syndrome because of the ergonomics of an office were not enforced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Then we did all of this research and figured out exactly what makes a sustainable, safe environment.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And so there are, I mean, hundreds of items on a checklist that a health and safety compliance officer has to come into a workplace and check off and say, \u201cYes, there are no tripping hazards. The temperature is set at these degrees. There is this amount of lightning, there is this amount of space between the keyboard and the screen.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, all these tiny little things that you don\u2019t think about that actually keep you safe. And because you don\u2019t know about that, again, you don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know and so when you go off-site you don\u2019t know that you should be enforcing all of those things in order to keep you safe in the long-term. So, we\u2019re seeing like a step back, 50, 60 years in history in terms of workforce safety and health. And that\u2019s just one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I\u2019ve seen a case where basically I think Josh Pigford from Baremetrics, like, they\u2019re a fully remote team, right? And so basically I think [inaudible 00:11:54] obscured tax law in one of the states that his team members are in. They have to pay, like, a couple of thousand dollars just out of the blue. So, that kind of sucks, again, if you\u2019re an executive, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0And if you don\u2019t know about it. You don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know so it\u2019s so critical to work with a remote work control [crosstalk 00:12:16].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Not as a personal plug but as somebody that is on the other side of this that does know what you don\u2019t know so that you can make this transition and say, \u201cOh, wow. I was about to break all of these laws that I wouldn\u2019t know about until a lawsuit was gonna be filed against me.\u201d Like, I need to make sure that I am preventing those risks instead of trying to clean up the mess.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that is pretty interesting. You also mentioned about calculating or measuring the impact of going remote, like, transitioning from co-locate to distributed. How do you define the metrics or do you have the same metrics for every companies you work with? Is it like revenue or how do you decide that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there\u2019s a lot of criteria that we do measure across the board. We do customize it for each of our clients depending on exactly which metrics they\u2019re looking to pull and which ones they want to promote. But in general, just about every single company is going to see impact in a variety of places. One is real estate obviously. Another is the net ratio of the employees. And there\u2019s a lot of different ripple effects there, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, locality costs and just income to expenses ratio for the individual they don\u2019t have to spend as much on going to work and, therefore, maybe you don\u2019t need to pay them as much. So, that\u2019s an issue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>We also see productivity costs are actually the number one place where most companies see the greatest savings because people are just more productive, they\u2019re giving more output, and so your systems are just automatically more efficient.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you measure productivity costs?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a good question. So, this is where it gets very complicated and then, in fact, I loop in experts like Global Workplace Analytics, her name is Kate Lister, she is my go-to for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0But yes, we do measure results and this is where the organizational development piece comes into play. Just about every operations manager is tracking the production costs of your product or service.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Like, how many hours it takes, how many people, all of that lifecycle of what it takes to produce one product or one service. And then the more that you make that efficient the cheaper the cost per product is. And so if you can make that more efficient then it goes down and down and down and that\u2019s where we see the productivity comes [crosstalk 00:14:58].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. I feel like we also\u2026I feel like there\u2019s a lot of, like, hand-holding. If you work with a company, right? Okay, we want to help you transition from co-located to distributed. And basically you also need to figure out, like, your clients need to figure out do they even know, like, the cost to make their product? Especially when it\u2019s software. The thing with software is just it\u2019s all out there. It\u2019s a time. There is no, like, raw materials. I think it\u2019s so interesting because, like, I always have this theory that if your company wants to go remote it\u2019s good because it pushes you to get your shit together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, basically the documentation, the culture, like, figuring out the policy, something like that. So, that\u2019s, kind of, like if you\u2019re\u2026you know what a startup\u2019s like, if you\u2019re a software startup you\u2019re all over the place. You\u2019re really forced to, \u201cGet your shit together, man.\u201d Like, it\u2019s there. And I think consultants like you, kind of, help push that way because if you think about it, at the end of the day you will know the real cost of shipping a particular piece of a software.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, exactly. And that\u2019s a lot of what we do especially with like you said, the startups and small businesses. In fact, we collaborate with VCs on exactly that, making sure\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026that the infrastructure of the businesses that they\u2019re building are sound, that there are not long-term risks associated with building a fully distributed team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, we make sure that they have those communication channels in place, the digital resources, that there\u2019s that cultural trust being built right from the very beginning<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>[\u2026] because, I mean, you\u2019ve worked in startup, I\u2019ve worked in startup, and 9 times out of 10 it\u2019s not the product that fails, it\u2019s the team. And if the team isn\u2019t set up\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2026with a good virtual workplace, then yes, of course, they\u2019re going to fail. So, yeah, we really make sure that we build that virtual office, if you will, space for them so that they can give them the leadership training and then hand the ball to them on doing the rest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Talking about, you know, regarding building startups or business and remote work, like I mentioned to you before the call, I\u2019m really curious about the topic of, you know, the social and community aspect of distributed work, remote work, whatever you call it, virtual jobs. So, there\u2019s this one other article you wrote which mentioned about remote work encourages entrepreneurship. I totally agree with it and I feel like this is something that\u2019s I feel like rarely mentioned because people can take it for granted. But they really realize it because remote work enables it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, for example, my favorite example is actual Indie hackers, like, the ability for you to connect with our people around the world it just makes it easier for you to create stuff, to create something valuable. And you don\u2019t have to be in Silicon Valley to make great connection and even to start a startup which is why this podcast is called \u201cOut of The Valley\u201d because we think that you can just build great things everywhere, right? Also, the fact that a lot of VCs now, Venture Capitalists, [inaudible 00:18:32] remote-first capital thing. That [inaudible 00:18:37] remote company which I found super interesting. Yeah, I just don\u2019t feel like [inaudible 00:18:44] the entrepreneurship part. The one thing that I want to ask is about the remote work strength is the local technology culture. You also write about this. Can you elaborate a bit more about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, are you talking in relationship to communities or businesses?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0more like the community I think. Community, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Yeah, so community this is a really big conversation that\u2019s happening. A lot of the government projects that I work on are related to this. How can communities and, you know, cities, counties, governments, people, residents, how can they benefit from having remote workers in their area? And it\u2019s a really, really fascinating conversation because just like we are dispersing workers, we\u2019re also dispersing business and business opportunities like you talked about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>But what\u2019s happening above that is that we\u2019re also dispersing industry and we\u2019re also dispersing opportunity.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, this means yes, you don\u2019t have to commute to your office in, you know, downtown Chicago or Hong Kong or whatever but that also means that you don\u2019t have to leave your tiny little town who is dependent on your tax revenue. It also means that you can bring your industry, whatever it is, healthcare or manufacturing or entertainment or design, you can bring that also to your tiny little town that never would have been able to recruit, you know, large healthcare company into their city.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>You can bring your company and bring the impact of that company right into your town.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, we\u2019re seeing amazing massive results with this that we are really distributing wealth and opportunity all throughout the urban world to buy it and really alleviating the hyper-urbanization problems that are happening in metro areas but then also in so doing stimulating rural areas and equating opportunity in both.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I totally find this super interesting. So, I also found out\u2026 I looked at your LinkedIn. So, you were a strategist on the Utah\u2019s Rural Online Initiative, right? Can you share a bit more, like, how did you exactly help the government on that role?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I was actually connected to this opportunity by a friend. I\u2019m originally from Utah and so a friend said, \u201cOh, there\u2019s something remote work-related happening in Utah, you must be involved.\u201d And I said, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not but let me reach out to them.\u201d So, I connected with them and said, \u201cHey, if there\u2019s anything I can do to help, let me know.\u201d And they said, \u201cI\u2019m so glad you called because we didn\u2019t think this bill would pass and here we are, we don\u2019t know what to do. We\u2019re supposed to take remote jobs into rural Utah. What\u2019s next?\u201d And I said, \u201cThis is perfect.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s so government, you know? \u201cI didn\u2019t think this bill will pass.\u201d Like, \u201cOh crap, what do we do?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, \u201cWe don\u2019t know what we\u2019re gonna do.\u201d Yeah. I mean, to their credit they had great ideas, great vision, and then my team and I just came in and we said, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s design the curriculum and the entire infrastructure.\u201d And so essentially we built this distributed company and distributed organization and program that teaches other people how to be distributed. So, our program takes a rural resident that has never heard about remote work before all the way through the phases of training and job coaching and job acquisition and gets them a remote job at the end.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then that\u2019s just the worker side. We also now have a business side in which we do the same thing with businesses. We take them from being, you know, very hesitant about remote work, teaching them what the benefits of virtual workers are, help them convert their operations in order to support virtual workers and then hire the virtual workers that we\u2019ve just trained and so they get connected together at BM. We\u2019re seeing enormous success with the program and it\u2019s now scaling nationally throughout the United States.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Were you limited by the industry? Like, I think a lot of people\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s interesting. But I think a lot of people\u2019s mind\u2019s like, \u201cOh, remote work.\u201d Like, what if we were in a farm for example or things that you don\u2019t associate with, you can work with home. Yeah, can you share a bit more about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I mean, I get pretty defensive when a lot of the great remote work ideas are only limited to tech, right? Like, always gonna be a tech job.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019m like, \u201cNo.\u201d I\u2019m personally frustrated about that because I don\u2019t come from tech and so a lot of the remote work knowledge\u2026 I shared at the beginning that I thought, \u201cOh, I\u2019m sure everybody knows what I\u2019m doing,\u201d because I didn\u2019t know that nobody else knew this. So, when I got connected with the tech industry I was so mad. I was like, \u201cYou guys have such great information. You\u2019ve gotta share this with the other industries.\u201d And so that was really how my business started was, like, connecting the dots and saying, \u201cOkay, Automatic. You talk to Buffer and Envision, you talk to Sigma. Like, let\u2019s talk to each other about what we\u2019re doing and not doing.\u201d That was a lot of my research is identifying that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yes, it\u2019s very\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>I\u2019m gonna use a strong word, it\u2019s very selfish of tech to think that remote work is only happening in their companies. It\u2019s happening everywhere.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>We\u2019re seeing amazing growth rates in healthcare, in financial services, in entertainment. I mean, it\u2019s immense. But then specifically in reference to the rural conversation, yes, we have amazing amounts of people that are losing their livelihoods because their manufacturing jobs have shut down. Right? This is why we have an entire third of the United States that\u2019s called the Rust Belt because it\u2019s just deteriorating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we see, you know, 30% to 60% unemployment rates. I mean, that\u2019s completely unacceptable. So, this can help and that\u2019s exactly what we try to do with the Rural Online Initiative is help them convert their skills from technical jobs like manufacturing. We work with coal miners, we work with even, like, stay-at-home parents. We say, \u201cOkay, what skills have you used in your roles in the past? And let\u2019s adapt those and find freelancing roles or find full-time employment roles that capitalize on those skills.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, that\u2019s the premise of the gig economy in general, right? Is like freelancers specialize in a niche and so that really opens employment opportunities to people that have a niche. Like, if we say, \u201cYeah, you were on factory line all day every day for the past 20 years,\u201d that\u2019s hard to convert that to remote work. However, when we zoom into the bullet points of their job description and we say, \u201cYou\u2019re fantastic at workflow management,\u201d you led a team, you understand development processes and protocols, then all of a sudden that translates much more easily into the virtual world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, this is fascinating. This is the first time I\u2019ve heard about this. Can you give me an example, like, how does it convert? Like, you mentioned someone that worked in a factory line and then what job can she get? Like, what remote job can she get?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, I mean, just think about just leadership skills, right? So, let\u2019s imagine somebody was on a factory management line and so they led a team of people that, you know, somebody was at station A, somebody was at station B, somebody was at station C and they were, you know, selling backpacks or something like that, right? If we just take away that phrase of selling backpacks and we turn that into somebody at station A, somebody at station B, and somebody at station C is designing a website, it\u2019s exactly the same process. Project management is project management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s just the project and the service that\u2019s different. And so we can say\u2026 And especially the role of the Rural Online Initiative is to help people open their mind to that because the employers are saying, \u201cYou worked in a factory? You have nothing to do with my business.\u201d And we\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, no, no. Zoom in. Look at that project management.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then all of a sudden when you do that and you see this person knows how to lead people, they know how to create a workflow, they know how to pass responsibility off from one person to another, they know how to conduct performance reviews, all of that, then all of a sudden what happens is when you offer that to an employer you say, \u201cLook, now who\u2019s your competition? You have somebody who\u2019s been doing project management for what, two years? They\u2019re fresh out of college, they\u2019ve never worked in an office environment with other people, or you have this person from a rural county that has project management experience for the past 35 years. Now, what\u2019s more valuable?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, it\u2019s a translation, right? It\u2019s like we were talking about in the beginning that a company needs to go through this process of shifting their mindset from physical to virtual. This is, kind of, just the core of the problem of the future of work in general that we\u2019re just so limited in our mindsets and our perspectives that one thing has gone a certain way, but when we open our minds to that and help translate the entire business world from physical to virtual, it really helps bridge the gap and make the transition smoother.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. This is absolutely great. And also a coincidence I mentioned at the beginning I was listening to the Joe Rogan\u2019s Podcast with Naval Ravikant and Naval made exactly same argument about retraining people. So, like, people can be retrained [inaudible 00:29:07] like why should we only stick the traditional education? You know, you got to school, you go to college, and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also funny you mentioned how people are selfish. I feel like tech people, kind of, like live in a bubble sometimes. It\u2019s also funny because a lot of principles, like, I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s a lot, some principles are taking from the traditional supply chain like \u201cThe Toyota Way\u201d is really famous when it comes to project management, product management and so on, so it comes full circle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. In fact, I just had a long conversation with my Uber driver a few weeks ago. I was on a business trip and he was talking about how he had been unemployed for a year and a half and he had been doing very, very, very well and then his business just shut down because it was a trucking brokerage. And so he\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, my industry is gone.\u201d We kept talking and we kept talking and I said, \u201cWell, what about artificial intelligence?\u201d Like, I know that there\u2019s a lot of AI tools and software processes that are being developed for shipments, right? For all of this transportation infrastructure of goods. Like, it\u2019s not that your job went away, it\u2019s just that the knowledge is shifting.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And he said, \u201cOh yeah, well actually there was these three really large companies that came and studied my business for a year in order to build those products.\u201d And I was like, \u201cThere\u2019s your job, man. Today, absolutely right after this drive turn your sign off and go contact those companies,\u201d because the knowledge still is needed. The role is shifting and how we\u2019re using the knowledge is different but those workflows are just being adapted to new processes and so it is just so critical that we utilize all of the experience and intellectual property that was built over generations of industries and just use it in a new way as opposed to drawing this big line between\u2026although that\u2019s the old way of doing things and there\u2019s this new way of doing things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I love my technology friends so much, right? All these distributed companies, they are so great. But this is a lot of work that I have to do if, say, with these distributed companies that are saying, \u201cOh, you know, I wish that there was some way that we could, like, really encourage our workers to be better. And we\u2019re noticing that we have a lot of career stagnancy rates, like, oh, what do we do?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, look. I know that you guys are like completely anti-enterprise and, you know, the big brands are the big bad wolf, I get that. But guess what? They have hundreds of years of workforce development and they are actually required to have learning and development departments for this reason. Did you guys know that learning and development departments exist?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And they were like, \u201cNo, but that would love all of our problems.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, we don\u2019t have to reinvent the wheel every single time, we just have to think of information in a new way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, yeah, whether it be with the workforce or the business we really need to start bridging the gap and stop thinking that remote work is a new type of work. It\u2019s not, it\u2019s just work, like, we\u2019re just doing it in a new location.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I think this also drives a point when it comes to remote hiring, especially when you\u2019re a tech startup, right? So, like you mentioned, I think there\u2019s a lot of skills. I feel like there\u2019s tendency for, you know, tech startups they want to hire people who have experience in tech startups before. But I think when you go, like, you look through that there\u2019s actually a lot of talent that can learn pretty quickly once you get thrown into an environment and if you have a great company culture to begin with, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, for example, like you mentioned, those factory workers that have been working in the factory, like, 10, 15 years, he or she is probably a good project manager and if tech startups can somehow tap that talent, like, they kinda find a way to, \u201cHey, this person actually is a good project manager.\u201d And at this point if you\u2019re a remote startup then this just doesn\u2019t matter anymore, right? You can be in Silicon Valley and your team members can be in Utah or Birmingham, Alabama, it doesn\u2019t matter. So, I think because for software engineers I think it\u2019s easier. If you\u2019re good enough you can create something, you can self-learn stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the test is, kind of like\u2026 Startups are good at finding software engineers for testing but when it comes to marketing or sales I feel like it\u2019s really hard for non-tech people. Like, I personally, like, here is my first tech startup job. Before I was like in a very traditional industry. I was selling steel to customers abroad. So, I was just, kind of, like, lucky that Codementor and Arc, the, kind of, like CEO, these guys kinda learn the thing in tech startup. So, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0And when they are willing to open their mind like that, that\u2019s what really opens up the great opportunities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, because too many business leaders of all industries and all company sizes are very limited and very entitled and they say, \u201cWell, no. You work with me and this is what I have to offer and that\u2019s the end of the story. So, if you don\u2019t like it then you must be a bad match for us.\u201d And it\u2019s very easy to fall into that mentality. I mean, I certainly have as well. But when we open up our minds even further and we say, \u201cMan, I have a high turnover rate in my business. This is a problem.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And instead of thinking like, \u201cWell, it\u2019s a problem of the workers,\u201d take a step back and say, \u201cYeah, actually it might really help to have workers with more experience and more dedication and loyalty maybe from the baby boomer generation.\u201d But then even take it a step further and say, \u201cWell, instead of just recruiting and tapping that talent pool, maybe we take a step back and say\u2026have a conversation with that demographic and say, \u201cWhat do you need? Why is this job not appealing to you? Because I need you so what can I do for you in order to make this job more appealing? Because you are bringing a lot of wealth and knowledge and experience into this role and I wanna make sure that it\u2019s something that you\u2019re excited about.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then, you know, that\u2019s where you start getting more information of like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m not 50 years away from retirement, I\u2019m 15 years away from retirement. I need to have a really good retirement package,\u201d and sometimes it\u2019s that simple. And they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, then yeah. I can do that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, it\u2019s just a matter of talking and conversing and really opening up your mind and not just falling into that trap of like, \u201cOur company is so cool it\u2019s a privilege to work for us and that should be good enough for you.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I also just realized when it comes to a remote work, a company always talking that remote work is good because you are tapping into the talent all over the world which is correct in a way but I think when they say that their mind\u2019s like tech talents all over the world. But when remote work got more and more popular you can see these I\u2019ll say undeveloped talent that\u2019s actually pretty good, right? And then they can learn to be in tech and then if your talent pool opens up even much, much larger.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Well, I mean, if we\u2019re honest with ourselves, recruiting is just marketing. It\u2019s marketing your company. And so if we think about it in the same terms as marketing your business, you would never, ever just open up your business and say, \u201cWe\u2019re gonna sell to every single human being on the planet.\u201d Like, that doesn\u2019t make any sense. The first step that every marketing director and sales manager does is create a consumer profile like, \u201cWho are we selling to? Because they are going to be more likely to buy our product and boost our business than some random person next to them and so that\u2019s who we\u2019re gonna target.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we get very, very specific about the skills and qualities and traits and locations that we want our consumers to have. Yet, we\u2019re not applying that at all to our recruiting especially when we open up our recruiting to be virtual and we\u2019re saying, \u201cYeah, anybody from anywhere can work for us.\u201d And it\u2019s like, \u201cHow is that gonna benefit your business? No. Zoom in, create a candidate profile, and say people living in this location maybe of this age demographic, people that have experience in a variety of industries, this is what\u2019s going to be uniquely beneficial to our workflows and processes. That\u2019s who we wanna target.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, it\u2019s not a matter of, like, hiring from anywhere, it\u2019s strategizing and leveraging the fact that you can hire from anywhere to create an even wider talent pool in which you can then narrow back in.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Everybody\u2019s thinking really big right now but we\u2019ve gotta zoom back in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Right. Also, I wanna talk a bit more about distribute teams remote work on the leadership level. I think you mentioned about on one of your articles it\u2019s about the self-discipline. As a remote worker, you have to hone your self-discipline. I was thinking about if a company is transitioning from co-located to distribute which means I believe if this happens, I mean, they have a certain trust with their employees that you are self-disciplined. But I still feel it\u2019s still a challenge, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Especially when it comes to new hires, like, older employees they kind of know as they\u2019re going they have a report with the executives and they want to do their best job but for new hires especially having their first remote job they probably need some hand-holding, so to speak. So, how can a company help hone one\u2019s self-discipline? Yeah, how can a company help a new remote hire? Or not necessarily new, a remote key member to be more productive but not in a micromanaging way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s really critical to understand that when you are off-site more self-management is required and so that\u2019s the mistake that most people think is that, \u201cOh, I\u2019m gonna start working off-site. Everything\u2019s gonna be the same and it\u2019s just gonna be more convenient for me.\u201d And it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, no. Look, there are so many management benefits that come from working in a co-located environment. Even if you have a bad manager there are a lot of management benefits. Somebody\u2019s always watching you. You\u2019re feeling motivated, right? There\u2019s people that are next to you just to, kind of, feel the energy of the [crosstalk 00:41:06], ebb and flows.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the vibe, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, and there\u2019s, you know, somebody walks by holding a piece of paper and you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s right. I forgot to do this,\u201d or people start going to the conference room and you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s right. There\u2019s a meeting.\u201d And there\u2019s just a lot of subconscious and subliminal benefits that exist in your environment. And when you\u2019re removed from that environment it\u2019s your responsibility to manage those yourself. So, my measurements that I tell people are that you need to be in control of your own time, your own tasks, and your own energy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in so doing that means you have to do a lot more critical thinking and problem-solving. So, if you\u2019re feeling isolated, and we\u2019re seeing this everywhere, isolation is the big scare of remote work and I can\u2019t help but laugh and be a little bit insensitive because they\u2019re like, \u201cI feel isolated. Alone with me.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cCool, how are you gonna solve that?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>That\u2019s the life of the remote worker is all about is being able to think critically and solve problems independently because you don\u2019t have people around you.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, how are you gonna solve that problem? Are you gonna tell your boss and maybe you guys can build a communication channel? Are you feeling cut off from resources? Maybe you need access to a folder that you don\u2019t have access to. Are you feeling socially isolated? Maybe you should join a yoga class or go play badminton or something, like, solve the problem, be willing to solve the problem. So, yeah, I think that that\u2019s really, really critical that we are self-managers in the fact of not just being aware of ourselves but also willing to solve the problems ourselves as well. And in so doing, most of the trouble that we have as remote workers goes away because we build the solution.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, basically it\u2019s, kind of, like, even though companies can help you to somewhat create something or a structure around the company culture or processes. But you feel like it still most of the time goes back to the individual level that you need to be able to solve your own problem. That\u2019s the first step, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I think it\u2019s both. That\u2019s the really important part is that it is both the employer and the worker. That\u2019s a big problem that we run into is that each party is assuming that the other one is gonna be responsible. So, a worker saying, \u201cWell, it\u2019s my boss\u2019 job to provide this for me and the boss is saying, \u201cHey, they wanted to work off-site. It\u2019s their responsibility to provide this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, the key in between both of those is to establish expectations and to prevent the misunderstanding or the unfulfillment of expectations. That\u2019s why policies are retracted is because they\u2019re saying, \u201cOh, they\u2019re not doing what I expected them to,\u201d but it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, did you ever tell them that you expected that?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0I see.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0They go outside and they say like, \u201cI\u2019m gonna pick up my kid at 3:00. No big deal, I work remotely.\u201d But then the boss is thinking, \u201cNo, I expect you to be available between the hours of 9:00 to 5:00,\u201d but that was never articulated so therefore we have a problem. So, that\u2019s again the risk of being redundant. That\u2019s again why we really emphasize the importance of remote work policies is because it clarifies those expectations so much. It\u2019s not just a legal document.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, a lot of times I joke that I\u2019m more of a therapist than a consultant because those are the conversations that I still facilitate between the manager and the worker is, \u201cYou expect them to be available between 9:00 to 5:00 but you expect flexibility around the hours between, you know, 3:00 and 4:00. How do we meet in the middle? What does that look like?\u201d And because a remote work policy is not one-size-fits-all, it\u2019s a unique set of standards and requirements for each business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, it also feels like it emphasizes the importance of documentation, of just writing things down. So, how would you\u2026 Let\u2019s say if there\u2019s a remote startup that\u2019s just, kind of, growing, like, they\u2019re probably like 5 people, 10 people and everybody works in remote ways, kind of, okay. Right? And then they go to 30 people or 50 people and then everything\u2019s, kind of, messed up. Documentation especially. So, other than hiring you, how would you advise them to at least\u2026 How could you advise them go about documenting stuff, is there some kind of rules or best practices?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>So, that\u2019s why it\u2019s so critical to get your infrastructure in place and your protocols in place while you\u2019re small because it is easy for chaos to exist when you\u2019re small.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>When you have a time of five people it doesn\u2019t matter if something\u2019s written down and so you that think, \u201cWhatever, it doesn\u2019t matter.\u201d And if somebody does go out on a limb and write something down it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, that was above and beyond. Show off. That\u2019s unnecessary.\u201d You\u2019re right. It is absolutely unnecessary at that level. However, as you scale it becomes more and more and more unnecessary.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, my biggest advice is to create those correct channels and infrastructures and resources while you\u2019re small get in the habit of using them while it\u2019s easy and then it\u2019s easy to add people into that as needed. So, always build your\u2026 I mean, we\u2019re always building our products to scale but we\u2019re not building our infrastructures to scale, especially our virtual infrastructures. And so if we don\u2019t do that, we\u2019re going to have massive growing pains. So, yeah, that would be my number one piece of advice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a challenge, isn\u2019t it? Like, when you\u2019re five people you just want to, you know, work on the product or marketing or the sales side. Like, documentation is probably the last thing on your mind like, \u201cYeah, this can wait.\u201d But you need to have good habits, right? I interviewed Liam Martin. You\u2019ve talked to Liam before, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0So, he has this rule of thumb which I think is super useful. Three strikes, kind of, thing. So, the first time you do something don\u2019t document it and the second time you do something start thinking about how would you document it. And the third time you do the same thing then you need to start documenting it. So, I think that\u2019s a good rule if you\u2019re like five or six people at least you really just need to start doing it. Especially if you plan to grow, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Especially, if you do have a plan to scale to like 50, 60 people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0And it gives your company and your business a sense of place because physical businesses are built with, you know, bricks and mortar and concrete and file folders, right? But virtual businesses are built with software and processes. And so if you just invite somebody into just a document, that\u2019s not an employment experience and they\u2019re gonna get lost and they\u2019re going to say, you know, \u201cWhat am I doing here? Is this a real job?\u201d And whatever. But if you can show a sense of virtual presence with a platform and with protocols and, you know, directories and, like, create the sense of place and direction in your business, then that makes them feel like they\u2019re a part of something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that really helps with the isolation. \u201cI\u2019m not just a person sitting in my living room working on a Google doc but I\u2019m a member of this team and this company and this culture and there\u2019s people around me even though I can\u2019t see them. There\u2019s people that are available in case I have questions and there\u2019s resources. I know where all of the resources are that I can tap into if I need, you know, a tool for a certain project.\u201d Like, it gives them that sense of belonging in place that we\u2019re missing by not going to an office.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I like the way you frame it. Like, you basically just make it something\u2026 It\u2019s like creating a building, a whole office.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0You need to frame it that way so it becomes less boring I guess.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, and especially in the tech world, right? We\u2019re still married to the onboarding process like, \u201cYou have to have your onboarding right next to somebody,\u201d and it\u2019s like well, yes, that is helpful, but in the case that we need it to be virtual, how can you create that same sense of protection and that same sense of safety and security and mentorship and guidance and belonging with a virtual interaction? And again, like, it takes some creativity and some innovation but all of those processes can be transitioned, we can translate physical business into virtual business with intention and with assistance from people that have done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0What are your favorite software or tools for a company to create this, kind of, virtual infrastructure, so to speak?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, you have to remember I went remote when the only thing we had was email. We did not have Slack, we did not have Asana, you know, we had email. We didn\u2019t have video calls, we didn\u2019t have anything. And so for me personally it is not so much about the tool, it\u2019s about how you\u2019re using the tools.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Totally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Because remote work is booming and we\u2019re going to see more and more and more and more tools every single day so we can\u2019t get married to a specific tool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>There are tools that come out that you\u2019re like, \u201cThank goodness. What did I do before this? It\u2019s so helpful.\u201d But we can\u2019t get married to the tool. We need to strategize how we use the tools.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So, back in the day at the risk of sounding like I\u2019m 90 years old, back in the day email, yeah, it was a mess but there was a few little things that we did in email to make sure that it stayed clean and it wasn\u2019t overwhelming and we didn\u2019t have these long threads go back and forth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it\u2019s the same thing with your teams. Like, okay, a tool\u2019s a tool. A paintbrush is a tool. But depending on how you are trained to use the paintbrush it\u2019s gonna produce different results. Same thing with your Slack, same thing with your video conferences and your meetings, same thing with GitLab and everything. Like, it just depends on how you are using this so communicate as a team, develop some good clean processes and you\u2019re gonna see really good results.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And keep it simple, too. I mean, I think that there\u2019s nothing that a communication channel and a good regular standup can\u2019t solve. Like, it doesn\u2019t matter if that\u2019s on text and in-person meeting or if you are, you know, Slack and a daily video call or whatever, like, communication channel, regular check-in, that should be the core of everything I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. Yeah, so Laurel I can continue talking to you for hours but I know that we\u2019re running out of time. So, how can listeners find you online?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Social media is probably the easiest. I\u2019m most active on LinkedIn and Twitter. I\u2019m the only Laurel Farrer that I know of so it\u2019s pretty easy to find me if you know how to spell my name. And you\u2019re always welcome to go to my personal website which is laurelfarrer.com or professional website which is distributeconsulting.com.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. And for listeners, if anyone is listening to this, like I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, don\u2019t forget to check out Laurel\u2019s writing mostly on Forbes and other places. Also, on her website you can find everything there. Yeah, Laurel, thank you so much for your time. I learned a lot of new things. And yes, thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laurel:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you, Jovian. It was so nice to meet you and to be here. It was a great conversation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jovian:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can also try <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/\">Arc<\/a><em>, your<\/em><em> shortcut to the world\u2019s best remote talent:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u26a1\ufe0f Access 450,000 top developers, designers, and marketers <br>\u26a1\ufe0f <em>Vetted and ready to interview<\/em><br>\u26a1\ufe0f Freelance or full-time<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\"><strong>Try Arc and hire top talent now \u2192<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Laurel Farrer shared how remote work can reinvigorate rural areas and how you can qualitatively measure the impact of remote work.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":367,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[18],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-365","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-thought-leadership"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.6 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Re-Skilling Via Remote Work With Laurel Farrer of Distribute Consulting<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Laurel Farrer shared how remote work can reinvigorate rural areas and how you can qualitatively measure the impact of remote work.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/arc.dev\/employer-blog\/reskilling-via-remote-work\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" 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